[quote author=Ru5tK1ng link=topic=723.msg7416#msg7416 date=1346542598]<br />Back in the heyday of ZD clans, anyone doing stupid shit under a tag WAS representing their clan. <br />If he was aliasing and was trolling or causing trouble, it didn&#039;t matter if he was wearing his tag or not. <br />He was still part of the clan and was still representing the bunch. TC had Dalek, Natural and Doc (?) running around zd cheating left and right. <br />Yet, the clan members still stuck around and basically gave the message that they were fine with their leaders cheating. <br />You guys are still around in that clan. Tosen isn&#039;t kicked out. What kind of message do you think you are sending?[/quote]<br /><br />There&#039;s a lot of problems with logic and things you&#039;ve posted, though I&#039;ll try to be succinct:<br /><br />[quote]You all say that you have washed your hands of Tosen&#039;s actions and do not condone them.&nbsp; However, I&#039;ve yet to see any real action taken within your clan.[/quote]<br />EDIT: Response given at bottom, he just got back<br /><br />[quote]I&#039;m guessing either you guys are either really new or have no clue about how a clan functions.[/quote]<br />You&#039;re trying to paint a subjective point of view on every clan assuming they&#039;re going to follow certain guidelines that you believe to be correct. Trying to use subjective as an objective basis is a logical fallacy. <br /><br />[quote]Back in the heyday of ZD clans, anyone doing stupid shit under a tag WAS representing their clan. If he was aliasing and was trolling or causing trouble, it didn&#039;t matter if he was wearing his tag or not.&nbsp; He was still part of the clan and was still representing the bunch[/quote]<br />This is probably the most ill-founded argument one could bring up. Again as I said previously in another post above, you just can&#039;t do this [please see the example I had posted]. By using your &#039;logic&#039; (and I use that term loosely in this case), every R member is a supporter of DDOSing other fellow members, and is completely their fault even if they&#039;re not around for this. Furthermore you claim that since R is an old clan (is it 2005 they were founded?) that they know how clans run since they&#039;re considerably older guys who have the years and years of experience and therefore willingly support that without a shadow of a doubt. In addition, the IDL has accepted Shane to play, which means that the IDL knowingly is letting him play despite his action on another port (skulltag, hacking and ban evading). Therefore by what you said, the IDL is responsible for letting him play and therefore endorses cheating on other ports. I&#039;m sure you can see how asinine such a thing would be by just those two examples alone.<br /><br />Trying to interfere with external port clan politics is Kilgore&#039;ish. The fact he is banned on Odamex and never will be able to play on this port again should be good enough for everyone. The best thing to do now instead of dragging this drama out would be to move past it and stop putting it in the spotlight. I&#039;m sure we&#039;re both familiar about how feeding trolls with attention just encourages more, and in this case does nothing.<br />Again if we go back to the Shane argument above, I have no problem with him playing on the IDL. He abides by the rules, he comes here to play and that is all that matters. I won&#039;t bring baggage over from another port. If Tosen decides to do something bad on Zandronum, then he is going to get banned and won&#039;t be playing that port either.<br /><br />The most [b]logical[/b] thing to do is ban the problem causer from the port and not throw out the good half of the apple with the bad. Asking H members to leave their clan and dissociate from everything related to that clan because of an event with one person is obviously extreme. I&#039;m sure with the vast amount of clan experience you possess that you understand how dynamic clan relations can be, and that not everyone is a shining gold star; we sometimes have to put up with stuff from time to time. If you want to go Kilgore and slander innocent members that don&#039;t have a part in this, feel free. I seem to have forgotten how important things like this are.<br /><br />I&#039;m hoping that the IDL can move forward past this event and secure it from ever happening again. The focus should be on the positive and where to go from here.<br /><br /><br /><br />Also Hydra just got back, his response is as follows:<br />[i]I do not care what happens on Odamex. We are a Zandronum clan and not responsible for anything that happens on another port. Tosen is not being kicked out.[/i]<br />He does not have a forum account and I posted this on his behalf. You can always ask him further questions on his Teamspeak server if you want to get in touch with him.