[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />JESUS<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Alright, now that we can all sorta take a step back I&#039;ll put my input into this.&nbsp; <br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />Nostar&#039;s point is that there&#039;s no reason for you or Bones to be in favor of retroactivity, so Bones showing up with &quot;logs&quot; isn&#039;t that convincing.&nbsp; I love Bones and I&#039;m definitely not trying to call him a liar or anything, but even I have trouble with him not having internet, being on the benefiting team, and telling us via proxy what the logs say.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I understand this definitely needs to be looked into of course, however I feel pretty safe in assuming that denny and bones are not trying to game us in any way.&nbsp; However with that said, its always wise to be on the same page when we discuss these issues.<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />Even though there&#039;s no explicit rule about it, I think it&#039;s pretty well known that the IDL Administration takes a dim view of throwing games (Caboose not being invited this season is evidence), and I would hope that no captain would consider it a viable strategy - or at least if they did they wouldn&#039;t think it was something they should be open about.&nbsp; So I don&#039;t even think I would call our punishment of SPE &quot;unfair&quot;, because Nero should&#039;ve known that throwing games would get him into trouble.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />As for this piece of the orchestra, I agree.&nbsp; We hand pick our captains to ensure we have competent people who understand basic things like cheating and foul play are usually looked upon poorly.&nbsp; On the other hand while it might have been low down and dirty (or perhaps it was never intended to be dirty, as MOST of SPE just didn&#039;t show up) it was never specifically ruled against and I dislike approaching matters so negatively especially when the entire party that committed the offense is no longer on that team.&nbsp; To me personally, not attending a game isn&#039;t quite as malicious as throwing a game to ruin yr opponents playoffs (as a side note EBL didn&#039;t deserve to go to the playoffs that season, having only won in a 3v2 I believe&nbsp; ::))<br /><br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />Teams are separate entities from players - that&#039;s why the man-advantage rule applies to teams (you can&#039;t substitute a non-offending player to make up for the lost man), and in this case it&#039;s most appropriate because SPE was getting the advantage from throwing games no matter who its captain was.&nbsp; You can say you&#039;re faultless, and you are!&nbsp; But that doesn&#039;t mean you&#039;re entitled to an advantage unfairly obtained by the previous captain.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />This is pretty sensible and it is sorta hard not to agree with this, we have always viewed teams in this light and one might wonder why this could be treated differently.&nbsp; However, I do remember SPE was a defeated team last season, a terrible team.&nbsp; Their only win came from a 3v2 against KGB if I recall correctly?&nbsp; The SPE franchise player quit midseason on this team, SPE never picked a 4th replacement player, SPE was a team entirely comprised of euros after the midseason trade to SUC.&nbsp; Maybe these shouldn&#039;t have anything to do with SPE&#039;s draft and while I personally don&#039;t think they should, they all point towards one significant thing:&nbsp; SPE was the worst team last season and they felt defeated before the game in question ever took place.&nbsp; Whether or not we can punish SPE for none of their players showing is what we should be debating.&nbsp; In a way it was Nero&#039;s fault because he never picked a replacement for Fastidious, in a way it is Mortalogy and NOT DEWWWS fault since they did not show up BUT DEWWW DID.&nbsp; FLS had a little bit of something left (courage or fear of Ladna&#039;s whip, not sure) <br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />And just so everyone knows, when we were talking about re-voting the issue Denny volunteered to have SPE (him and Bones) sit out, which was a [size=5][b]huge[/b][/size] gesture on his part.&nbsp; Of course the board can&#039;t do this, 3 of us are captains and so is Ralphis, so we&#039;d never get anything done.&nbsp; Still, I think that should be noted.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Duly noted.<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />Ralphis and Bones and I all talked about how FLS had first pick because SPE forfeited (this was August 20th or so), so I feel at least a little mislead.&nbsp; I&#039;m not gonna Blair or anything, but you can see how this screws me - and thus why I want to see the logs.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I would also like to see these logs as I do not remember FLS ever having first pick.&nbsp; I mean, when we assigned captains to teams (a couple weeks ago?) we said picks were 1/6/8 for spe/bsk/suc and nobody ever had an issue with this, I never had any clue anybody thought FLS was #1 and SPE was #2.<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />And I&#039;d like to say that as head of the board, I&#039;m a little irritated about being second-guessed.&nbsp; When I post rule changes to the forums, I don&#039;t take liberties.&nbsp; When we vote on things, I put the wording that I&#039;m going to use in IRC - and if I change it, I let everyone know that I posted it and that they should look at it to make sure we&#039;re square.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />If you could check your logs about this it would be appreciated because I (sorta) distinctly remember telling you you had updated the retroactivity clause incorrectly and for some reason I think it was just flubbed and never got taken care of.&nbsp; Not sure if this is or is not true, but could use some looking into!<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />a lot of stuff<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I agree, Ladna is made of sterner stuff and he has some sort of perserverance and sticks around through thick AND thin, something some of our other captains have not done.&nbsp; This is pretty admirable, especially since he took over for a failing captain on the second worst team in IDL which SUX.&nbsp; In my mind SPE was the worst team last season, not going to playoffs and only winning a game 3v2.&nbsp; However FLS won their only game by forfeit but attended playoffs.&nbsp; Tough call I think.<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=147.msg1209#msg1209 date=1260316896]<br />a whole lot of stuff<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Ultimately I think this was caused by having an inactive board, we never could discuss this as a group since nobody was around when everybody else was.&nbsp; Ladna disappeared for a while, mantis was hard to find, etc etc etc.&nbsp; That being said, this barely affects denny at all and regardless of if this is changed or not, perhaps he could be the bigger ( ::)) man and simply concede the pick to Ladna, after all its only ONE pick and denny isn&#039;t going to get Whiteboy anyways.<br /><br />PS I never remembered having a formal vote on this issue because of the reason above, and remain uncertain one ever happened.<br /><br />PPS Sorry dew, I had forgotten which of you had shown up don&#039;t hate me forever!!