As a general rule I believe board business is board business, and I also realize that trying me trying to say something is probably a bad idea.&nbsp; But here we go anyway.<br /><br />[quote author=Shadow_Ghost link=topic=144.msg1203#msg1203 date=1260300110]<br />Actually nostar, i dont save logs but ask ralphis, bones went through the logs and all evidence showed that it was voted that the rule wouldn&#039;t be retroactive. ALSO this might be a bit of a shocker to you buddy but the logs also showed that Ladna himself was against making it retroactive at the time too, ouch.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Nostar&#039;s point is that there&#039;s no reason for you or Bones to be in favor of retroactivity, so Bones showing up with &quot;logs&quot; isn&#039;t that convincing.&nbsp; I love Bones and I&#039;m definitely not trying to call him a liar or anything, but even I have trouble with him not having internet, being on the benefiting team, and telling us via proxy what the logs say.&nbsp; Coupled with the fact that I 100% don&#039;t remember talking about how retroactivity is &quot;unfair&quot;, I am extremely interested in seeing the actual logs.&nbsp; Of course, normally I keep logs of everything, but I recently reformatted destroying everything.&nbsp; Curses!<br /><br />We voted on the issue originally in August, and apparently I stated retroactivity was &quot;unfair&quot; in September.&nbsp; And we didn&#039;t even know Nero was quitting until... October I think?&nbsp; I remember debating keeping him on as captain in that month at least.&nbsp; Now maybe I&#039;ll get myself in trouble here, but I think the only thing that&#039;s &quot;unfair&quot; about retroactive anything is that the person being punished did something they didn&#039;t know they&#039;d be punished for.&nbsp; In this case I think it&#039;s fair, because he gamed the system and we shouldn&#039;t allow that.&nbsp; Even though there&#039;s no explicit rule about it, I think it&#039;s pretty well known that the IDL Administration takes a dim view of throwing games (Caboose not being invited this season is evidence), and I would hope that no captain would consider it a viable strategy - or at least if they did they wouldn&#039;t think it was something they should be open about.&nbsp; So I don&#039;t even think I would call our punishment of SPE &quot;unfair&quot;, because Nero should&#039;ve known that throwing games would get him into trouble.<br /><br />And while we were discussing this (briefly, I might add), you made the point that it&#039;s unfair that you be punished for Nero&#039;s actions, and if anything we should punish you for anything DMR did (note for those of you reading: DMR didn&#039;t do anything, it&#039;s just an example).&nbsp; That&#039;s even more unfair - what if your captain throws games or cheats and you decide to captain a different team.&nbsp; Should we punish you based on the actions of your captain?&nbsp; Teams are separate entities from players - that&#039;s why the man-advantage rule applies to teams (you can&#039;t substitute a non-offending player to make up for the lost man), and in this case it&#039;s most appropriate because SPE was getting the advantage from throwing games no matter who its captain was.&nbsp; You can say you&#039;re faultless, and you are!&nbsp; But that doesn&#039;t mean you&#039;re entitled to an advantage unfairly obtained by the previous captain.<br /><br />And just so everyone knows, when we were talking about re-voting the issue Denny volunteered to have SPE (him and Bones) sit out, which was a huge gesture on his part.&nbsp; Of course the board can&#039;t do this, 3 of us are captains and so is Ralphis, so we&#039;d never get anything done.&nbsp; Still, I think that should be noted.<br /><br />Furthermore, the main reason I agreed to be captain was that I would have 1st pick.&nbsp; Ralphis and Bones and I all talked about how FLS had first pick because SPE forfeited (this was August 20th or so), so I feel at least a little mislead.&nbsp; I&#039;m not gonna Blair or anything, but you can see how this screws me - and thus why I want to see the logs.<br /><br />And I&#039;d like to say that as head of the board, I&#039;m a little irritated about being second-guessed.&nbsp; When I post rule changes to the forums, I don&#039;t take liberties.&nbsp; When we vote on things, I put the wording that I&#039;m going to use in IRC - and if I change it, I let everyone know that I posted it and that they should look at it to make sure we&#039;re square.&nbsp; I go way out of my way to be fair about everything, and while I&#039;m certainly not perfect, I get the feeling that people think I just threw in retroactivity so I could get first pick.&nbsp; I wasn&#039;t even thinking about captaining when we voted on that rule, I got divorced, moved 400 miles from where I used to live, and went back to school all pretty much that summer, so there were some other things on my mind at the time.<br /><br />Board members are frequently surprised about the rules we vote on.&nbsp; You guys were surprised that Doomguy could not franchise someone and get an early pick - even though we explicitly discussed what would happen if captains couldn&#039;t get anyone to franchise with them.&nbsp; You guys didn&#039;t know that captains were dismissed after 2 [b]consecutive[/b] seasons of missing playoffs - which is explicitly in the rules!&nbsp; None of this stuff is ever secret, when we vote on things I use the wording, I update the rules in idl.org and then I make a forum post about it.&nbsp; Having a vote in August, and then disputing it in December - a few days before the draft no less - is really just a total failure.&nbsp; It&#039;s at least unfair to the people who plan based on the current rules, and we should do better than this if we want players to stick around... let alone captain.<br /><br />Which brings me to this point.&nbsp; If I weren&#039;t on the board, and I hadn&#039;t put a bunch of time and money into IDL, I would have resigned as captain over this.&nbsp; Ralphis did a good job of summing up the issue up to now, and I totally agree that this is the way things are as of this moment (although again, I would really, really like to see the actual logs), but I still feel pretty fucked over.&nbsp; A captain who&#039;s about 1000% better than me with arguably the best franchise player is going to get to pick before me because the former captain threw a game.&nbsp; There&#039;s nothing right about that at all, and the board exists to prevent stuff like this from happening, not to hide behind rules and say, &quot;well, that&#039;s the way IDL is.&quot;&nbsp; IDL is what we make it, and in my opinion if there&#039;s something we can do to make the league better and more fun, it&#039;s the board&#039;s responsibility to do it.<br /><br />Unfortunately now it&#039;s too late.&nbsp; When I brought up the issue of Nero forfeiting, we operated under the idea that Nero was going to be captain again (or if he quit, we wouldn&#039;t know the new captain) - so our decision could be reasonably free of influence... as much as the board gets anyway.&nbsp; Now we all know who the captains are, and all the favoritism and self-interest make it impossible to really discuss this fairly at all.&nbsp; And it turns out I&#039;m the only advocate for my position (besides Nostar evidently) - which is pretty shitty to be honest - so how would anybody believe I&#039;m trying to argue for fairness and not for first pick?&nbsp; I realized this and so I&#039;m going along with what the board decides, but I&#039;m 100% not alright with it.<br /><br />Both of these things combine into a real problem for IDL right now.&nbsp; We apparently really need to address the issue of great players taking over shitty teams (with a great pick), and shitty players taking over great teams (with a shitty pick).&nbsp; Because the draft order is based on last season&#039;s performance, and evidently the captains of the best and worst teams quit a lot, this has become a problem.&nbsp; How are we supposed to handle this in light of what&#039;s just happened?&nbsp; Because as soon as I bring it up, everyone&#039;s going to think I&#039;m just steamed about what happened this season, and we&#039;ll start acting on our assumptions and our friendships instead of what&#039;s good for IDL.<br /><br />In general, the things I do I do for a reason.&nbsp; When I&#039;m meticulous about making sure the board understands what we&#039;re voting on I want to avoid stuff like this.&nbsp; When I post things in the forums I want players to be aware of rule changes so they&#039;re not surprised.&nbsp; When I bring issues up, I think that that moment is the best time to talk about them.&nbsp; Sometimes we need to revisit issues (fixing the draft order in season 5 for instance), but we always have to be aware of the effect we&#039;re having on IDL - and changing things up like this, around a week before the draft, is extremely shitty.<br /><br />So I hope I&#039;ve really made everyone angry, and that this thread is reduced to a shitstorm.&nbsp; Usually I try and keep things like this from happening, but I guess because this affects me personally I care less about that than I normally do.