[quote=&quot;Fastidious&quot;]Huh?&nbsp; They are both strictly based on item control, you require getting those items which boost you to 200/200 to win more or less.&nbsp; Have you seen what happens to the other team on 13 when the enemy mid can steal a few blue armors?&nbsp; It&#039;s not pretty.&nbsp; Just because most teams aren&#039;t smart enough to realize that should be mid&#039;s primary goal doesn&#039;t mean item control there of your own items is a given[/quote]<br /><br />I don&#039;t really agree with that at all. The only time a team realistically has to steal the other team&#039;s blue armor is when the match first starts - other than that, you&#039;re taking a huge risk going for it. You&#039;re not going to steal it every 30 seconds so it&#039;s really close to impossible timing out 20 times (10 minute matches) a match and that&#039;s just the mathematical aspect of it. The reality is the armor is probably only grabbed 13-15 times a match (and that&#039;s assuming it&#039;s a 10 minute match). A smart runner will also be aware of the other team trying to steal it and will go for it first, even if it means taking a bit of damage. So aside from taking a quick peck at it in the beginning stages of a match, it&#039;s a stupid strategy to build around. The map is mid control and that&#039;s about it. You assign one guy to find the other team&#039;s player with 200/200 (who will have to come out to mid at some point) and damage him as much as possible. If that guy knows he&#039;s put a hurtin&#039; on the other team&#039;s man with the power-ups, he can elect to stay in mid and wait for his runner to come out with the flag and play back-up or just chase the power-up guy down and frag him if he can. When to do that depends on the situation but even if you manage to get a good shot off in mid and die, you can play close to home and your D and your mid should be in good enough shape to take him. Controlling items really isn&#039;t a factor in this map, it&#039;s so big that if you die without getting a capture, you&#039;re probably going to respawn with both of them already respawned in the base. If someone wants to dedicate a man to attempt to steal those items, I&#039;ll tell D to move up and have mid just play chase power-ups guy all game and the other team will break because they have nobody slowing-down/damaging my guy with the sphere. 200/200 will beat 100/0 every time. <br /><br />[quote=&#039;Fastidious&quot;]I wonder if Hatred thinks Quake is deeper than Doom.&nbsp; I&#039;m not saying Doom isn&#039;t as competitive as Quake because it is but it takes way more time to approach mastery in.[/quote]<br /><br />I don&#039;t know if I&#039;d say it&#039;s deeper than Doom; it certainly takes more time to master. Doom CTF is actually really complex sometimes and I&#039;d argue based on how fast it&#039;s played and how it requires a great deal of coordination to be good at, it&#039;s on it&#039;s own level of &quot;deepness.&quot; I think of Quake as DooM&#039;s big brother in a lot of ways, DooM is just way more fun and easier to learn. Quake is usually full of people who&#039;ve played for 40 years and make it not-so-fun to play against unless you&#039;re really committed. Either way, I enjoy both games a great deal but DooM is definitely my first love. <br /><br />EDIT: Seems I pretty much echo&#039;d what Ladna had already said about 13. For whatever reason, I read everything on his post except the 13 v 16 debate aha. One quick thing I wanted to add was that usually the map doesn&#039;t turn into flag stand-off central unless both teams apply the strategy mentioned above. If both teams aren&#039;t taking full advantage of power-ups, the team not using them as often as possible will get crushed. Even with both teams maximizing power-ups and applying mid pressure on the power-up man, one side usually breaks before flag-standoffs happen. But if both runners manage to make it out, the flag-standoffs are usually pretty epic. I admit I don&#039;t care for flag standoffs due to their chaotic natures but I have to say that returning a flag in the midst of a long stand-off requires a lot of coordination if a team returns a flag and attempts to score. But usually in a close match, a flag standoff will occur, it&#039;s just that now both teams are scrambling and trying to let their runners rebuild on power-ups (this is probably the only other time I might focus a bit more on stealing the other team&#039;s blue armor or sphere if possible).