[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=267.msg2421#msg2421 date=1283212704]<br />Ladna do you dislike any map?&nbsp;  ???&nbsp; I don&#039;t mean to be a dick but I always have a hard time believing people&#039;s opinions on maps if they don&#039;t hate a map or two!<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Oh man.<br /><br />Well let me start off by saying I have the same attitude about maps that the Celtics do about ref calls: they can be shitty, but you should just get better so it doesn&#039;t matter.&nbsp; A lot of things can go against you in a game, but losers whine and champions conquer.&nbsp; And besides, it&#039;s not like the other team is playing a different map.&nbsp; With very few exceptions, maps are exactly the same for both sides, so you&#039;re both working with the same pros and cons.&nbsp; Like, personally I wouldn&#039;t say &quot;200/200 runner on 3413 is impossible to stop&quot;, I would say, &quot;I&#039;m pretty awful at stopping a 200/200 runner, I need to get better&quot;.&nbsp; I mean, if your team&#039;s O is 200/200, and their team&#039;s O is 200/200, and you&#039;re losing... it means that the problem lies elsewhere (assuming O execution is equal).<br /><br />But if you were to ask me (and I think you did), I&#039;d have no trouble coming up with some maps I just don&#039;t like to play:<br /><br />MAP01<br /><br />Probably the most boring map ever created, I hate this map&#039;s guts.&nbsp; The middle sucks, the base sucks, the spawns suck, the running patterns suck, blah blah blah.&nbsp; It&#039;s like someone made a bet that they could make a map using only 10 linedefs and 3 rooms.&nbsp; Awesome.<br /><br />MAP07<br /><br />I don&#039;t really like this map - I don&#039;t fully agree it&#039;s a hellish grind, but it&#039;s boring to play.&nbsp; Yawn frag someone in base because they only have 5 hp left, yawn run 7000 miles to the other base, yawn get camped, repeat a million times.<br /><br />MAP10<br /><br />I think this map is a piece of shit.&nbsp; The spawn points are awful, the gun placement is awful, it&#039;s seriously a single hallway with no tricks to get around it - and there&#039;s a bonus rocket launcher right next to it!&nbsp; It should be called trench warfare, because like trench warfare it blows.<br /><br />MAP13<br /><br />I&#039;ll throwdown on this map, sure.&nbsp; It&#039;s too open for 3v3 (the two nearly-completely separate sides of the base make it nearly impossible to defend, there&#039;s huge amounts of health and a green armor to boot, the wallrun doesn&#039;t actually make a big gameplay difference, and the middle is like, clever for no reason - no one ever falls and you can shoot the runner the entire time they&#039;re on that platform so......&nbsp; You can think of it like MAP18 with no cool middle and a giant loop behind the flag room where you can whore health and hide forever.&nbsp; Fuckin gay as hell.&nbsp; Evenly matched teams will find themselves in standoff after standoff, and unlike cool, varied maps like MAP19 where the runner could be in lots of different places with different tactics, MAP13 it&#039;s just basically pole dancing, and I fucking hate to see Tai pole dance.<br /><br />MAP21<br /><br />It probably sucks, I&#039;ve only played it in a 5v5 (where Sabertooth owned like crazy).&nbsp; IDK though, generally when we get a claustrophobic map like this we evaluate the spawns to see if it&#039;s a grind, and this one doesn&#039;t look like the spawns allow a shutout... but other things like that fence, the huge middle, and the complete inability to dodge at all in those hallways sort of indicate that horrible things will happen.<br /><br />MAP23<br /><br />LB will hate me, but this map is retarded 3v3.&nbsp; Way too complicated.&nbsp; Then again there&#039;s really nowhere to hide so standoffs don&#039;t last forever... but there&#039;s 1000 points of health in the map so who knows.&nbsp; Not spawning on the gun really pisses me off too, the last thing I want to do when I&#039;m trying to RTF is pedal backwards to touch the wall the SSG is inexplicably embedded in.&nbsp; Any map that spawns me with a pistol should be stricken from the IDL WAD, even if a gun is like, inches away.&nbsp; Give me something, CG, SG, whatever.<br /><br />MAP24<br /><br />Sucks, boo.<br /><br />MAP25<br /><br />MAP25 is gay 3v3.&nbsp; 4v4 it&#039;s perfect I think, but 3v3 it&#039;s just too wide open and indefensible.&nbsp; After the O beats your D, there&#039;s this 20 seconds of panic where your team has no idea where the O is, and the rest of the enemy is rushing up the field to frag you in the back.&nbsp; IDK I&#039;m not solidly against this one, I just feel like there are no chokepoints, or perhaps too many for them to matter in 3v3.<br /><br />MAP30<br /><br />Yeah I hate the pit map too, especially because the stupid fence is the best way to run and I&#039;m terrible at it.&nbsp; If the lifts and fence were timed differently so it was easier for O to juke or pull off some SR50 move (like MAP09) that would be one thing, but there is no such trick.&nbsp; As soon as you touch the flag the announcer tells everyone you&#039;re in the pit, and 7 people shoot you all at once.&nbsp; Gay.&nbsp; And there&#039;s basically no way for M to help you, as soon as they run up 1 hallway the other team&#039;s O &amp; M run up the other hallway to 2v1 your D, and sure 99% of the time D is gonna win anyway but that just makes M feel like pushing up is pointless - why take the risk if the payoff is practically non-existent.&nbsp; And besides, to effectively cover for a runner there you have to kill like, 10 people in a row.&nbsp; That&#039;s possible maybe once every 3 games even for IDL&#039;s best fraggers.<br /><br />There&#039;s other ZDCTF maps I really dislike, but I&#039;m too lazy to go through them and find them.<br /><br />[hr]<br /><br />Also Ralphis makes a really good point - we basically don&#039;t make IDL maps because the shitstorm that would result would kill us all, so we like blaming other people for shitty maps... even though there&#039;s been talk about us doing so (everything is possible).&nbsp; What should probably generally happen is someone would take it upon themselves to change the maps around and maybe make a ZD3v3.wad or something (really I don&#039;t know).&nbsp; We basically just cherry-pick maps, the most extensive editing I think we&#039;ve done is to switch out those rails for SGs and move the flag back on MAP32 so you can&#039;t RJ from mid and flag grab anymore (which was cool... but broken).&nbsp; I didn&#039;t mean to give the impression that us editing and fixing maps is a normal thing or even a thing we do at all, my bad.<br /><br />And I haven&#039;t played enough SmartCTF games to really give an opinion; unlike most ZDCTF maps, SmartCTF maps seem to need a lot of experience to really understand, so I&#039;m withholding judgment until they&#039;re done and I&#039;ve played them enough.&nbsp; I do really like the concept though, often I get the feeling that a lot of mapping is like, &quot;Look what this new ZDaemon feature can do!&quot; and &quot;Whoa cool textures&quot; that really have nothing to do with gameplay, so I&#039;m excited that smart, experienced players like Chaindude, Fastidious and Humanbones are (see [url=http://forums.intldoomleague.org/index.php?topic=180.0]here[/url] for more info) putting more thought into map design.