[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=267.msg2408#msg2408 date=1283151072]<br />Not sure what you mean by this.&nbsp; If someone RJs up to the hump with the flag then goes to for the middle RJ up to the wall to cross middle, how is it easy to stop them?&nbsp; If I play middle and see them even then it&#039;s hard as hell to hit them up there let alone get a good enough shot that vs them high up to frag them.&nbsp; It&#039;s almost impossible as they just wait up there until the timing is right too.&nbsp; Trying to come after them means you gotta get out of position and spend time going up there to chase.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I mean as the runner goes in.&nbsp; If they&#039;ve gotten to your flag with enough health to RJ onto the hump, and then RJ back up to the middle wall your whole team has failed - repeatedly - and you deserve to lose that flag.&nbsp; And I agree w/ Dew, RJs make that map playable, unpredictable and fun; without them that map is a headache in linedef form.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=267.msg2408#msg2408 date=1283151072]<br />Bit off topic but yeah I don&#039;t ZD think RJing is good, even though I can score a lot on MAP08 RJing.&nbsp; I think the only single person who mastered RJing was potent.&nbsp; Even top players such as Chain you&#039;ll often see die to self damage when trying to RJ.&nbsp; I also have problems as ZDaemon whenever I RJ my fire and jump keys usually get stuck (anyone know how to stop that?).<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Eh, Doom in general has difficulty with vertical play.&nbsp; Jumps are pretty big deals, RJs are very specialized maneuvers.&nbsp; In Quake your rocket splash doesn&#039;t hurt you nearly as much as it hurts your opponent, so RJs are a lot easier and a big part of the game.&nbsp; It just means that an RJ in ZD is riskier with a bigger payoff.&nbsp; Personally I think it fits MAP08 pretty well; really I think that the problem is that running any other way is pretty close to impossible.<br /><br />Mike is a pretty pro RJer, Strangle is coming up, Chain has a good one, Cab &amp; Jenova are pros as well - although I think the differences between ST and ZD mess Jenova up haha.&nbsp; MB used to have an OK RJ too but he ditched us!!!<br /><br />[hr]<br /><br />ODA02:<br /><br />This map could probably be fixed with a powerup, or changing all spawns (except 1) to an SG/CG spawn.&nbsp; Maybe a more-accessible RL... but that might not make a big difference.&nbsp; It&#039;s a shame that the map is still a ridiculous grind despite all the trick maneuvers on it, so I&#039;m inclined to advocate a fix instead of a cut, but it&#039;s hard to be sure.&nbsp; I&#039;m certainly not a fan of it as it is.<br /><br />3413:<br /><br />I think that this map is really unique, and is more teamplay-oriented than most players realize.&nbsp; EBL used an offensive push technique where their D and M would push up after clearing.&nbsp; After their opponent was trapped in the base, their O grabbed and they were in great position to cover/pick.&nbsp; Of course, the way to beat that is to use the teleporters and flank them, but I think because it was so unorthodox (their entire team abandoned their base!!!) none of their opponents thought flanking them would actually work.&nbsp; They just went into &quot;we&#039;re being camped/trapped&quot; mode, and consequently got outflagged.<br /><br />EBL could pull that off due to frag power, but I think the predominant way to play 3413 is still 200/200 O, chase M that pushes up to cover/pick, and a turret D.&nbsp; Without chase M your defense will get pounded by a 200/200 O, and without 200/200 O you&#039;ll never score against your opponent&#039;s chase M/turret D.&nbsp; Turret D is so idle during most of the game that some part of me thinks this should be a 2 M situation... but I&#039;ve never played it so I don&#039;t know.&nbsp; Regardless, the map&#039;s got plenty of play, I really disagree that it&#039;s &quot;broken&quot; in any respect.<br /><br />MAP16<br /><br />I think MAP16 played really well last season, did SUC have a BYE there?&nbsp; Generally, spamming down that hallway is a waste of time in a 3v3; if you have plasma you can help cover a runner, but plasma + spheres make that map not a horrible grind - they provide plenty of areas to control and opportunities to take control.<br /><br />MAP19<br /><br />I can go either way on MAP19, I&#039;ll agree it&#039;s really too big and standoff-prone, but it&#039;s not like it&#039;s different for your opponent.&nbsp; When good teams face each other here it&#039;s a test of their coordination and communication, when bad teams face each other it&#039;s just a 20-minute manhunt.&nbsp; It&#039;s hard for us to remove a map that&#039;s hosted such epic games - like Masterbowls - but it doesn&#039;t make it impossible, it&#039;s just something we think about.<br /><br />MAP24<br /><br />Sucks, but it sucks because that BFG is broken.&nbsp; If that&#039;s too big a change, allow players to take that base lift up (make it accessible from the initial part of the base), or maybe both.<br /><br />ZDU05<br /><br />I didn&#039;t play this map, but I hear it yielded some epic games.&nbsp; IDL perhaps owes Chaindude an apology, he initially included a railgun on that map, but we removed it when we put it in the IDL WAD - that&#039;s why things seem a little silly, like what are those column sniper points for, why is the middle so large, etc.&nbsp; Without watching a few demos of this map I wouldn&#039;t feel comfortable removing it at all.<br /><br />MAD11<br /><br />Never played it, because everyone refuses to play it, even though they&#039;ve never played it.&nbsp; Yeah it looks prone to chaotic play, but MAP18 is that way too and people seem to love it so....<br /><br />MAP09<br /><br />I agree with your assessment about the map, but I don&#039;t see why it should be removed based on that.&nbsp; There aren&#039;t that many BFG maps in the WAD, and this one provides a really interesting dynamic; in most maps with a big powerup you don&#039;t see teams fighting tooth &amp; nail to control that room, but on this map basically all the frags happen in and around this room.&nbsp; It&#039;s also defensively interesting, most teams are probably tempted at first to play base D, but the best spot for D there is probably at the mouth of the BFG cave... which makes it an even bigger BFG power struggle.<br /><br />3409<br /><br />The only complaint I&#039;ve heard about this map is that it&#039;s too easy to camp the inside of the teleporter - although I maintain that if you allow someone to do that to you then you deserve what you get.&nbsp; Otherwise 3v3 here is really fun.<br /><br />MAP27<br /><br />This is a map where 2 D can shut down a nearly infinite number of O, and the fact that each base has 2 sides that are blind to each other means that D never wants to move up for fear of being flanked.&nbsp; I like the mix of weapons here - rockets &amp; plasma are effective on D and O - and I like the powerups, but in the end the map is just a grind and probably unfixable.<br /><br />ZDU30<br /><br />When we included this map, we thought that teams would use a lot more RJ out of the pit, but I think I&#039;ve only seen maybe 3-4 RJs on this map in IDL games (mike, cab &amp; saber?).&nbsp; It&#039;s maybe fixable if an RL and health is put in the pit (RL in the open part, health back behind the cage so D can&#039;t easily whore it).&nbsp; Maybe if there were 2 medkits and megaarmor behind the cage and the 2 stairways to middle were separated (as in, there were two separate hallways) the map would be fixed also... but you might have to take plasma out to avoid a 2D spam attack... then again that might be pretty cool haha.<br /><br />[hr]<br /><br />I took a nap before posting and you guys posted more stuff.<br /><br />[quote author=Nostar]<br />Fast lobbies for maps he likes.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah, taste in maps is largely subjective and something the board&nbsp; struggles with all the time.&nbsp; Trying to figure out how a map will play without playing it for 2 years is a thoroughly imperfect process, but we can&#039;t wait for a map to &quot;mature&quot; before including it in IDL, otherwise we end up in a 1/4/8 situation.&nbsp; More lobbying please! :D<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious]<br />A good example is ZDCTF27 it might kick ass if the flag wasn&#039;t at the end of a long hall way with only one way in and out.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />That&#039;s a cool idea, maybe if there were like, a little alcove instead of a huge hallway that map wouldn&#039;t be impossible.&nbsp; Then D could push to middle.<br /><br />[quote author=Nostar]<br />Let&#039;s use this thread to rope him into doing more things.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I&#039;d love to rope more people into doing a lot more things.&nbsp; A lot of stuff in my post involves some intense map editing, which Ralphis doesn&#039;t really have time to do.&nbsp; If anyone wants to volunteer to help us out we&#039;d forever appreciate it - although I&#039;m not saying we&#039;re even going to do any of this stuff (next season is a long way away!).&nbsp; There&#039;s plenty of things to do if anyone&#039;s interested in getting involved, just let a board member or Ralphis know and we&#039;ll get you started :) .<br /><br />