My apologies, Nostar! The maps aren&#039;t [b]broken[/b], they suck! I was just trying to be nice about it. :(<br /><br />Anywho...<br /><br />[quote=&quot;nostar&quot;]BPCTF isn&#039;t broken. It might be bad. Most people said that map28 was bad when it was first introduced into the wad. There was a pretty loud chorus of people saying &quot;WTF ONLY 2 SPAWNS?!#$!&quot;. We&#039;ll play it for a couple of seasons and if it still blows then we&#039;ll oust it.[/quote]<br /><br />It is very bad. Also, with map28, I can&#039;t speak for other people but I found that map rather curious. As far as BTCTF goes, as I initially stated, I listed my concerns about the map and the problems it may cause in another thread.<br /><br />[quote=&quot;nostar&quot;]Libraries has been replaced in the wad but it&#039;s not a broken map. The RL spawn doesn&#039;t break anything. It&#039;s just inconvenient, maybe even purposely inconvenient. The map is such a defensive grind that anything that screws the defense a little might be considered a map feature rather than something &quot;broken&quot;. I didn&#039;t care for it because it was a brutal grind.[/quote]<br /><br />While it&#039;s true the map is a bit grindy, the times I&#039;ve played it (mostly 3v3), I&#039;ve found a defensive push and strong middle surge can really reduce the grind an awful lot. The RL spawn probably was designed to assist the other team. However, making a retarded spawn probably isn&#039;t the best option either. <br />Instead of suggesting an edit, the IDL board did the better thing and replace it with a better map. But hey, overall, I actually liked libraries! <br /><br />[quote=&quot;nostar&quot;]With your Smart02 comments I&#039;m starting to get the feeling that &quot;broken&quot; means hard to defend. Well yes, that was one of the major premises behind that entire SmartCTF wad. And yeah, the spawns aren&#039;t always advantageous to the defense as they are in many maps. That is on purpose. You don&#039;t often spawn with the SSG. That is on purpose. There aren&#039;t obvious choke points. That is on purpose. We have 25 maps in the wad with all of those things present. I imagine that will be the majority of what you play in IDL. However sometimes we need to play 34-13 or SCTF02 or Sewers if only to keep the sanity of less drone-ish players.[/quote]<br /><br />Of course these elements of the map were done on purpose. That doesn&#039;t mean it makes it good. I already told you why it&#039;s bad, the only thing you managed to say was it was &quot;done on purpose.&quot; It&#039;s not only just about spawns. A map in which flag standoffs occurring are the norm isn&#039;t a good map. Is it fun in priv? Yes. Is it even entertaining to watch? Absolutely. But what is the sense of coordinating and practicing it when you know it will all be for nothing due to how regular flag standoffs happen? <br /><br />I&#039;m open to hearing why it&#039;s good. I&#039;m also open to hearing strategies on how it should be approached. Even further more, I&#039;m [b]also open[/b] to practicing and formulating against suggested strategies if anyone is to ever bring them about. I&#039;ve played the map a bunch of times from 3v3 to 5v5 and nothing any team tried worked. It just broke down and became who could hold onto the flag the longest. <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Joshsmith&quot;]Secondly, it&#039;s not impossible to use another gun, it&#039;s not impossible to call for help. Handing players an SSG every spawn is a valid style, but it does not have to be every single map. Think of it as a balance thing. Defend on the outside so you can stop or at least injure the runner/s, then on respawn, take them down with a lesser weapon on the inside, or just run out front and grab an SSG and cut them off before they get out/chase down.[/quote]<br /><br />I&#039;m glad you posted, Josh. This is actually one of the few posts or arguments I&#039;ve seen that suggest how to approach the map.<br />The issue I have with the map is the SSG placement. While it is true, you can defend/return a flag with something other than SSG after you die, the base has plenty of turns and corners to cleanly cut that gives the flag carrier a good chance of making it into mid. But, from the flag room spawns, a clean SG hit after some mid-damage has been done to the runner should put him down. <br /><br />Basically, my biggest concern with the map is that the SSG is so far out in the middle of the map, it&#039;s hardly risky to move up and have an entire team focus on controlling it. <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Fastidious&quot;]<br />Hatred regarding SCTF02 I think you just haven&#039;t played it enough perhaps.&nbsp; I&#039;ve probably played it as much as anyone (except Chaindude) and it&#039;s in my opinion a 2D map unless you have great team work or a unique lineup.&nbsp; They way I usually play it is one D up by flag but ready to SSG enemies below and another D down by the easy to get SSG looking down the water &quot;halls&quot; so he can see enemies long distances away.&nbsp; It&#039;s worked very well for me but it&#039;s not as easy to do as it sounds and typically if the upper D dies you need to rotate in to cover there then replace lower D next[/quote]<br /><br />Dammit, Fast! I dedicated an entire paragraph to asking people to bring up suggestions and you post! I should have read down further.&nbsp; :-* But, I still do want to hear more peoples&#039; suggestions on a strategy for the map!<br /><br />I&#039;m assuming your approach was done in 3v3, Fast. I agree that the best approach would definitely be 2D. Setting it up is tough though. Because unless both defenders are basically on top of the flag, the runner will most likely pick the side the other defender isn&#039;t on to go down. This makes chasing pretty tough on the defender in pursuit of the flag because his only option is to hope he can meet the flag carrier in the other base before he scores. The problem then becomes getting through one or even two people just to get to the flag runner. By the time you do that (if you even manage to) he&#039;s already scored. The only other hope you have is if your runner has grabbed their flag and made it out. Then it becomes totally chaotic. <br /><br />I did do something similar to your suggestion, Fast, with a guy covering the flag and another covering the bottom. That was the problem we ran into every time the upper Flag D died. Now of course, you&#039;d like to think the lower D guy would have seen him but it&#039;s fairly possible for a runner to sneak by him with all the routes to the flag. And that&#039;s why it&#039;s a huge concern for me in regards to this map. What&#039;s the point of 2D if one guy dying is basically giving away a flag? Sure you could camp 2d on top of the flag, but then you won&#039;t know where the O is coming from. And with that, you won&#039;t be able to damage him on his way to the flag. <br /><br />Ladna, I love you. And in terms of smartctf02 (or any crazy map), Ladna&#039;s comment really sums it up best:<br /><br />[quote=&quot;Ladna&quot;]re: chaotic<br /><br />I don&#039;t know if I even like chaotic maps.&nbsp; I feel like if a map is too chaotic or too big or too random that good teams can be beaten by bad teams simply via luck.&nbsp; I&#039;m not saying ZDCTF18 is one of those, I&#039;m just wary of having this prized &quot;chaotic&quot; value work its way into our minds.[/quote]<br /><br />I really couldn&#039;t agree more. And I hate map18. There, it&#039;s okay to say it now everybody! :p<br /><br />Also, what the fuck is map32 even about? I completely forgot about that map until I ran through it in priv. God, what is it, map31&#039;s retarded cousin? That&#039;s what it looks like aha. That is also another chaotic, crazy map. I hate that one now, too!<br /><br />Also, Nostar, Josh, Fast and everybody else: I appreciate all of the posts. Discussion is paramount to IDL&#039;s success. While it is sometimes annoying to have to respond to people and spend a lot of time doing it, just know I appreciate it! The more we discuss things, the more apparent it is we care. And it serves as a friendly reminder sometimes when you&#039;re on the brink of not caring anymore. So to close it out, I love all of you (except Domains) and and excited to be competing this season! See you faggots on the field. :)<br /><br /><br /><br />