Heh, a lot of awesome threads lately.&nbsp; Good job guys :D .<br /><br />For me, some maps are clear grinds.&nbsp; MAP24, MAP01, ODA02, the pit map, etc.&nbsp; Other maps it&#039;s not so clear, let&#039;s take MAP04 and THIRTY4-31 as examples:<br /><br />First, these maps have a lot in common.&nbsp; It&#039;s difficult to dodge right after you grab the flag, so the announcer says [b]RED FLAG TAKEN[/b] and you get shot 80hp more often than not.&nbsp; They also have all SSG spawns, meaning that even when you kill the defense, they just respawn with all their health and commence shooting you with the best gun again.&nbsp; There&#039;s also not that much health - 3431 has the medikit and the 3 stimpaks, and MAP04 has stimpaks around the base, but runners can&#039;t be bothered to get them usually.&nbsp; In 3v3, these maps tend to go the full 10 minutes, but in 4v4 usually 1 team squeezes out 5 flags.&nbsp; 5v5 is a clusterfuck, so I won&#039;t go into it.<br /><br />That said, I tend to agree with Fastidious that these maps &quot;feel like&quot; grinds, even in a 4v4.&nbsp; And what I mean to say by that is that there&#039;s a difference between a map &quot;feeling like a grind&quot; and a map actually being a grind.&nbsp; I think that MAP04 and 3431 feel like grinds because there&#039;s exactly 1 way to run there, and it sucks.&nbsp; You can&#039;t really exercise any middle control in MAP04, and 3431 middle control is just playing defense at the doors instead of back by the flag.&nbsp; It oftentimes comes down to dodging, shooting, and picks - and after a while that can be either boring, or just unfair because someone&#039;s connection drops or your get PL and whiff a shot.<br /><br />Fast, what do you mean by &quot;flag action&quot;.&nbsp; Does this mean that it&#039;s easier to get flag touches, or that the flag is out more often than not?&nbsp; Do you mean maps should have more standoffs?&nbsp; Because to me, you have to open up the definition of &quot;grind map&quot; to a map where play is stale: there&#039;s one best way to play it, and it&#039;s a question of who messes up first.&nbsp; Lots of maps fall into this extra category, MAP04, 3431, MAP07, MAP08, and so on.&nbsp; To me, it&#039;s not about removing defensive camp points and SSG spawns, it&#039;s about giving the runner different options to attack, and middle different ways to control the flow of the game.<br /><br />Because think about how defense is played.&nbsp; Defense is basically killing your opponent every time they touch your flag (not frag ratio, as is commonly thought).&nbsp; The best way to ensure you kill someone is camp them - and in CTF it&#039;s easy because the flag is the ultimate powerup, the runner has to pass through that spot at some point, and has to go through very specific routes to get to that spot.&nbsp; If you remove defensive chokepoints, or you just create too many so they&#039;re not actually chokepoints, you&#039;re essentially turning the map into a standoff map.&nbsp; A lot of maps mitigate the &quot;multiple entrances into the base = standoffs&quot; issue by using stuff like lifts, slow doors/cages, trick jumps, etc., and they&#039;re pretty effective.&nbsp; 3413 (IDL map 12) is interesting because it uses the supercharge/megaarmor combo as a different method of attack, in fact, 3413 is probably the most interesting offensive map in the set because of the cage trick, the tele trick, and the charge run, and the fact that it uses a relatively open base and long middle killing field to keep it from turning into standoff city.<br /><br />Contrast that with MAP19, where standoffs are the name of the game - it&#039;s pretty easy to beat D there, and extremely difficult to even find the runner after they grab, let alone kill them.&nbsp; The only thing that slows runners down there is the fact that there&#039;s a choke point right at the middle, and that the map is so long the rest of your team can beat them to their base before they score.<br /><br />I&#039;m no fan of grinds, but I&#039;m not a fan of &quot;hunt the flag carrier&quot; either.&nbsp; I think that map design needs to consider game flow - what slows runners down, where middle player can get their information about runner routes and defensive positions (basically seeing the runner enter the base and where the defense is camped), and defensive first-shot positions as well as second-chance spawns.&nbsp; Most maps don&#039;t do any of that, it&#039;s just a happy accident that some of them work out.