No Ralph, I meant more in the sense that what started as kind of a club for ZD outlaws (namely DX, UD, and whoever was banned) has really not escaped its clique-y nature. Yes, back in our day it was a hell of a lot more intense and driven by competition, but just judging by the discussions, posts, and general attitude in the late 2000s up to today, it just seems people are trying too hard.<br /><br />What was once a real drive to kick ass is now arrogance and quite frankly, &quot;drama&quot; doesn&#039;t even give it justice. It&#039;s beyond that.<br /><br />Now, I think a good opportunity was squandered by not making the league public in ZD (as in, public servers, shown on the master list). That&#039;s water under the bridge now, but I truly felt that was &quot;it.&quot; Yes, Odamex is developing; Yes, Odamex is open-source and you don&#039;t get banned; Yes, it&#039;s tailored for the real Doom feel, but the sad fact is that the life of a community is measured by how many people consume the end product. ZD still has people playing publicly; the ST facelift of a port still has lots of numbers; Odamex? You gotta harass people to get a priv going, otherwise it has no public life of its own.<br /><br />I&#039;m not exactly sure what possible solutions could alleviate the problem. Just as the console generation has evolved from brutally hard arcade-style games to the pussyfication of the current assortment of games, I too believe the classic (not even &quot;hardcore&quot;) Doomer is a vanishing demographic. The average Joe prefers easy, and ZD/&quot;ST&quot; are easy.