[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]<br />That would be correct, expect you do have a chance of at least fragging them through the fence part if they take the lower path. If they take the tunnel path, then you are probably going to get scored on - granted, in order for them to take the tunnel path, they&#039;d have to be your general area at that spawn so they&#039;d only get by if they fragged you.[/quote]<br /><br />Note that under the current system, and bringing that example to map28, if you get the SG spawn and they go the tunnel route, you are fucked no matter how you slice the pie. I do not believe you see this.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]Perhaps you don&#039;t understand the spawn I&#039;m alluding to. The spawn is on the lower side near the exit. In fact, it might be right on top of the exit basically. If somebody frags you, you spawn here, you are left for dead. They will not stop to frag a pistol chaser if they head towards you as you are respawning and if they take the long hallway route or lift, they will most likely get to their flag in that route before you will. In order to get a weapon to realistically frag with (i.e not the pistol), you&#039;d either have to turn around, go back into the base and grab the super shotgun [b]or[/b] run into their base to their long hallway and grab an SSG in their base. By that time, regardless of which weapon you choose to grab, they will have scored.[/quote]<br /><br />I perfectly know what spawn you&#039;re alluding to. I&#039;d like to say again that if you got the SG spawn and they took the hallway or the gate path, you&#039;re not getting anywhere. You are not getting a frag. You do not pass GO. You do not collect $200. It&#039;s true that you do get a weapon, but you can&#039;t use it to kill the carrier unless he is at 5% health and you get a snap distance shot when following a mile behind him.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]No action you take in that circumstance can prevent a score.[/quote]<br /><br />True it is disadvantageous, but I would not say it so definitely. Both pistol spawns give you under a second&#039;s travel time to the SSG, it&#039;s really not backtracking as much as you say, and plus if you follow the carrier, you&#039;ll likely be able to pick up an enemy-side SSG and get at least one shot off the carrier before he is able to reach the pedestal. You still pose a very viable threat.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]They should be the ones dying the least yes, but they [b]do[/b] get fragged. Part of being a good defender is recovering once you respawn and either chase the runner down with an SG and frag them or find the time to pick up an SSG and catch them.[/quote]<br /><br />Well, I&#039;m going to pretend you didn&#039;t patronize me. It&#039;s better that way.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]I don&#039;t even understand what you&#039;re trying to say here but I&#039;ll take a shot in the dark. You&#039;re suggesting I&#039;d have examples of moves you could make in some of those spawn spots listed in your examples. You are correct, I could list them. But there&#039;s no need to. You clearly didn&#039;t read my post at all as you are only addressing paths to SSGS, not paths that include shotguns or chainguns along the way. Or for that matter, spawn spots with shotguns or chainguns on the way. Chainguns and SG&#039;s are good chasing weapons as well. I&#039;d certainly take them over the pistol![/quote]<br /><br />It&#039;s true, those change things. I would like to point out that I even said that you edited your post to clarify while I was typing shit up and going through maps, so I didn&#039;t see that&#039;s what you actually meant since you wanted to be vague at first. Regardless, there are multiple spawns that still apply to this, and you had boldly claimed that there were no maps that did.<br /><br />I&#039;ll dismiss most of your counters as subjective and honestly rather condescending, so I&#039;d rather not address them.<br /><br />EDIT: [b]ALSO[/b], if you want me to list all the spawns that are disadvantageous in the IDL, I will do it. And you won&#039;t have concocted situational counters for anywhere near all of them.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]The only time this would be true is if somebody successfully rocket jumped without fragging themselves in the attempt. Most defenders/mids will gameplan to avoid a rocket jump from happening, although they still do happen on occasion. But other than that, you have plenty of time to get the shotgun in the front of the base or just spam rockets to the exit from the SSG spawn area to prevent them from taking that route. If they&#039;re playing by the lift or holding it, you still have the shotgun to work with and if you&#039;re feeling lucky enough, you can grab the SSG quickly and hope you can pick them off in one shot. Either way, given the stalematish aspect of the map, you have time to recover, something you don&#039;t have in map28. Another bad example. [/quote]<br /><br />I can&#039;t tell if you&#039;re trolling me. It&#039;s possible. Haven&#039;t you played 08 enough to know that there are a high number of grabs instantly on return, and plenty, [b]plenty[/b] of occasions of players chasing with the pistol in a ditch effort to return the flag, which I believe is what we were discussing regarding map28&#039;s pistol spawns. In fact, a stark difference is between the two is map28&#039;s pistol spawns are within 10 feet of a SSG, which can be considered the most optimal weapon and of much higher value than spawning in a path where there&#039;s a chaingun to grab. I&#039;d wager you&#039;d waste more time diverting from an optimal path in map08 finding a weapon than you would taking the very short amount of time to grab the SSG and give persuit in map28. This is subjective, due to the varying playstyles Doomers have, and situations possible on a field that cannot be accurately calculated for probability, but I felt it should be mentioned regardless.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=545.msg5547#msg5547 date=1322804562]So why fix something that, while actually broken, seems to work?[/quote]<br /><br />It&#039;s true, I can fully understand people wanting no change at all. Map28 is seen as a unique case of change. I in no way mentioned in any shape or form that there were not good games played on map28 as a result of the spawn system being broken. Don&#039;t trip over that sentence. I saw it as an opportunity to change things up, and see how it played in the competitive arena. I also do not see the reasons put forth by some players defending it as particularly valid, hence my repeated posts on the matter. I have given multiple reasons and factual information on how map flow could or could not be altered. I can&#039;t seem to shake the few priv games I had on it where 75%+ of the players said the change felt negligible or they didn&#039;t notice a difference, while the most...vocal opponents didn&#039;t wait a full minute of gameplay to denounce it. Interestingly, no one who voted for 6-spawns has spoken up in the thread. That&#039;s a curious fact. It appears the idea of changing it has caused a firestorm all its own. I&#039;m still not sure what everyone&#039;s afraid of. I have, in my eyes, effectively rebutted every argument made by opponents of this.<br /><br />It&#039;s pretty impressive how many words I&#039;ve typed up about this simple change. I never thought it&#039;d get so much attention, and in a way it&#039;s made it ever the more interesting and inspired me to push harder for it to see how people throw themselves out there with sometimes very incorrect information and arguments, when no one is aware if it will affect the map for better or worse. Just the fact that there is a change gets everyone upset. Is the fact that I am (I consider myself) a decent defender and have successfully defended on map28 on multiple occasions slipped your arguments as well? If anything, this change would affect how I played the map. Far out.<br /><br />EDIT: Since this will be my last post on the topic as I grow weary of posting about this map, I did some tests and you can grab the SSG faster from the pistol spawns than you can with the original SG spawn. Not only are they both closer as the doomguy flies but the SG wall prevents you from going directly to the SSG when you spawn there. In addition, you have another really good spawn in the hallway in the form of the CG spawn. This part is pure theory based off how quick the player is, but if you die defending and respawn at a pistol spawn, and the enemy carrier comes back the same way he came in, you will have your SSG ready to blow his face off by the time he&#039;s in killing range. You can also very quickly loop around the inside of the cliff and snag the SSG near the hallway and still have a good chance of heading off a carrier going that direction.