Going to respond to your posts in no particular order, Xen. <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]In addition, I would like to pose the following question: What is a left for dead spawn? To me it&#039;s similar to when you get the far hallway spawn in map26 and helplessly watching the runner fly out of your base on the other side, well outside your range of engagement. Some good that SSG does![/quote]<br /><br />That would be correct, expect you do have a chance of at least fragging them through the fence part if they take the lower path. If they take the tunnel path, then you are probably going to get scored on - granted, in order for them to take the tunnel path, they&#039;d have to be your general area at that spawn so they&#039;d only get by if they fragged you.<br /><br />Perhaps you don&#039;t understand the spawn I&#039;m alluding to. The spawn is on the lower side near the exit. In fact, it might be right on top of the exit basically. If somebody frags you, you spawn here, you are left for dead. They will not stop to frag a pistol chaser if they head towards you as you are respawning and if they take the long hallway route or lift, they will most likely get to their flag in that route before you will. In order to get a weapon to realistically frag with (i.e not the pistol), you&#039;d either have to turn around, go back into the base and grab the super shotgun [b]or[/b] run into their base to their long hallway and grab an SSG in their base. By that time, regardless of which weapon you choose to grab, they will have scored.<br /><br />That is a left-for-dead spawn. No action you take in that circumstance can prevent a score. Unless you&#039;ve weakened the considerably and can manage a pistol frag - something that rarely happens and isn&#039;t something I want to bank on for a return. <br /><br />I want to touch on this a little further because it seems you don&#039;t understand what I&#039;m saying at all. You speak in a tone that suggests defenders rarely die, if at all. They should be the ones dying the least yes, but they [b]do[/b] get fragged. Part of being a good defender is recovering once you respawn and either chase the runner down with an SG and frag them or find the time to pick up an SSG and catch them. In any circumstance, the lower exit spawn in map28 [b]does not[/b] give you any option to recover since you&#039;re forced to chase with a pistol and hope the runner makes a crucial mistake by bumping into a wall or changing paths for no reason. <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]So there you go, for that specific criteria, you have 3 well-played, often-picked (maybe not map16 so much) veteran maps with serious pistol spawn to SSG route problems! I anticipate your counter argument. I expect you to post specific theoretical movements defenders would take in each spawn.<br /><br />However, I think a better argument would be chasing without a weapon other than pistol in your &#039;pickup path of persuit&#039; at all! Upon which a few of those listed examples present themselves under that as well.[/quote]<br /><br />I don&#039;t even understand what you&#039;re trying to say here but I&#039;ll take a shot in the dark. You&#039;re suggesting I&#039;d have examples of moves you could make in some of those spawn spots listed in your examples. You are correct, I could list them. But there&#039;s no need to. You clearly didn&#039;t read my post at all as you are only addressing paths to SSGS, not paths that include shotguns or chainguns along the way. Or for that matter, spawn spots with shotguns or chainguns on the way. Chainguns and SG&#039;s are good chasing weapons as well. I&#039;d certainly take them over the pistol!<br />But, for the sake of wanting to see your counter arguments, I will give you more specific examples.<br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]You could argue that MAP15 has 4 spawns that fit this criteria, but it will be excluded because there&#039;s no real mid separating team-owned areas.[/quote]<br /><br />No need to argue this one, you did it on your own.<br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]MAP16 (1 spawn, near soulsphere)[/quote]<br /><br />You spawn by a rocket launcher I believe. You also are en route to a chaingun on the way, giving you a better chasing weapon. Bad example, moving on. <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]While you don&#039;t spawn on top of a SG in the MAP20 outside spawn, it is directly in front of you[/quote]<br /><br />lol<br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]While the most accessible SSG is in the middle in MAP18, you could spend time getting a SSG in the spawn alcoves, which would be backtracking from the 2 hallway spawns.[/quote]<br /><br />Or you could just run into the middle and grab the SSG to cut off the runner if he&#039;s still in your base? If they have middle control set up, you better hope your runner can hold onto their flag for a bit. But either way, the map is generally seen as chaotic as it is. Middle control is rough to set up at times and from the hallway spawns, you still get a shotgun which would give you a decent opportunity if you chase from the stairs. So you wouldn&#039;t necessarily need to grab the SSG in the alcoves. So really, you&#039;re not back-tracking. Another bad example.<br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]MAP08 (3 spawns)[/quote]<br /><br />The only time this would be true is if somebody successfully rocket jumped without fragging themselves in the attempt. Most defenders/mids will gameplan to avoid a rocket jump from happening, although they still do happen on occasion. But other than that, you have plenty of time to get the shotgun in the front of the base or just spam rockets to the exit from the SSG spawn area to prevent them from taking that route. If they&#039;re playing by the lift or holding it, you still have the shotgun to work with and if you&#039;re feeling lucky enough, you can grab the SSG quickly and hope you can pick them off in one shot. Either way, given the stalematish aspect of the map, you have time to recover, something you don&#039;t have in map28. Another bad example. <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]MAP17 (4 spawns)[/quote]<br /><br />This is actually a good example and I&#039;m glad you refreshed my memory on this one. The only choice you have is to haul ass to their base and either take their flag or get their SSG and hope for a lucky return. But that&#039;s usually why most teams play 2d here to not be caught in that situation as often. Granted, you do spawn by a shotgun one of the spawns. You also spawn by the rocket launcher and can spam them to prevent them from exiting the base. This gives either your other defender or O a chance to catch them. Nonetheless, it is fairly comparable to 28, not exactly the same though. So I wouldn&#039;t say it&#039;s a bad example but it&#039;s not a great one either. <br /><br />Overall, I probably wouldn&#039;t be arguing this at all had the spawn system never been broken (ironically enough). I wouldn&#039;t know any different. Just like I don&#039;t know any different in map17. But I do know different in map28 and it plays fine as it is. There&#039;s no reason to adjust it, it&#039;s been proven to work. And since the IDL is all about the communities opinion (as they&#039;ve suggested countless times and have used as sole arguments alone for other IDL issues), clearly people want the original 2-spawn system in place. So why fix something that, while actually broken, seems to work? That was an odd sentence, but sorry, there was no other way to say it! <br /><br />[quote=&quot;Xenaero&quot;]<br />Did I mention I did? If you want to bring this into play, I would figure after Turska demolished you in Week 2 of last season that you would at least recognize the dangers defense face no matter the spawn system on a map like that where spawns are wide and vulnerably placed. Your arguments to me are very poorly written and contrived. I could additionally go through all the maps and give you scenarios where spawns with weapons can work against you due to their position in the map, but that would be a lot of conjecture.[/quote]<br /><br />You&#039;re right. That did happen. But I was referring to the epic 5-round wildcard match between EBL/SUC of last winter season. We managed to do okay defensively, until round 5 at least :(.<br />But I didn&#039;t get rocked because of the spawns, I got rocked because Rus/Turska had an awesome rush going. Mobius actually played really well, too, I let him down that day. If I had to do it again, it wouldn&#039;t be so easy this time around!<br /><br /><br /><br />