[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />I thought I would just say if you guys haven&#039;t figured it out yet I&#039;m fanning the flames on purpose for a reason.&nbsp; So people take action and do things.&nbsp; Demagoguery is fun.&nbsp; I like to do this about once a season at least, haha.&nbsp; I remember when I first started posting on the IDL and brought up shit and everyone was like &quot;who is this guy&quot;.&nbsp; Good times.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />If it&#039;s all the same to you, I&#039;d like it if you didn&#039;t do stuff like this.&nbsp; If only because it takes up a lot of my time to straighten everything you say out.&nbsp; I also don&#039;t buy this puppetmaster thing.&nbsp; For a guy who&#039;s so good at getting people to do what he wants, you sure seem to be frustrated that we&#039;re not doing so.&nbsp; I think there&#039;s reasonable ways to get people thinking without trying to make huge flame threads -- which I don&#039;t really think this is, I&#039;ve seen way worse on the ZD forums.&nbsp; I love talking about this stuff, my family is a family of arguers; we&#039;ll argue until 6am about... basically anything.&nbsp; I&#039;m also really open and receptive to ideas, anyone who&#039;s worked on the board with me knows this.&nbsp; I really hope no one feels like I shout them down or anything, I think of all of the ZDaemon institutions (if IDL even counts), IDL is the most open and most easygoing.<br /><br />Anyway I love to discuss and argue about IDL and Doom.&nbsp; No need to fan flames heh.&nbsp; I&#039;m not trying to tell you to shut the hell up, but maybe to be less inflammatory.&nbsp; It is a suggestion :) .<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Anyhow on with the &quot;real talk&quot;...<br /><br />Ralph I&#039;m sure if I had access to massive IRC logs and the DE forums I could come up with many examples.&nbsp; I don&#039;t usually save such examples or remember them to use in the future.&nbsp; I think most people know the IDL has had a lot of fuck ups.&nbsp;  One of my favorites was how long it took to get Dragan, like four weeks wasn&#039;t?&nbsp; That was a joke.&nbsp; UD CONSPIRACY.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Was Dragan ever in UD?&nbsp; I don&#039;t think he was.&nbsp; I could be wrong though, I learn about new UD people all the time.&nbsp; Clan&#039;s older than dirt.&nbsp; Anyway, screenshot or it didn&#039;t happen.&nbsp; Either things are based on evidence or you&#039;re making them up.&nbsp; Yeah IDL&#039;s made a bunch of mistakes, and I think we have a reasonable system for avoiding the major ones.&nbsp; If you think there&#039;s a flaw, please (politely!) point it out.&nbsp; I guess I&#039;ll take rudely too, what the hell.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Why is mixing and matching stupid?&nbsp; The IDL already mixes and matches(3v2, 2v2, 2v1) but those are unfair so I guess that&#039;s OK, so I don&#039;t see how you can deny 4v4 as an option especially since is a fair match.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Changing the format changes the dynamics between team matchups.&nbsp; If a team has strong players in 3 spots and a weak 4th (this happens) against a more well-rounded group of 4 players, then that group of 4 players immediately gets an advantage in a 4v4 match.&nbsp; It&#039;s not unfair, it&#039;s just different than IDL has done it in the past.&nbsp; Actually I would call it unfair, because there&#039;s a limit to how far you can stretch &quot;fairness&quot;.&nbsp; If it was just based on number of players, then why don&#039;t we just randomly assign captains and players to teams.&nbsp; I&#039;m not trying to &quot;jump to conclusions&quot; here, but to illustrate that there are limits to the definition of &quot;an IDL game&quot;.&nbsp; So far that hasn&#039;t been 4v4, and it&#039;s more complicated than just allowing the option.&nbsp; In fact allowing the option is more complicated than switching formats wholesale.<br /><br />I&#039;m not in favor of 3v2, or 2v2, or 2v1.&nbsp; We talked about this a lot in Season 5 actually, and we decided that 3v2 was a good threat to prevent teams from trying to force 2v2s, and that actually having 3v2s was still preferable to 2v2s.&nbsp; Or at least, giving teams options... I think you call this &quot;having faith in the player base&quot;.&nbsp; What I am in favor of is making teams get 3 players.&nbsp; I&#039;ve always wanted this actually, but everyone I talked to said that a 3v2 is better than a forfeit.&nbsp; I tried to argue that real-life sports won&#039;t let you play short, but people said that this wasn&#039;t a real sport, or I was being too competitive, and that I should trust the players.<br /><br />You can see that not every issue is cut and dry.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />4v4 would let more players play, isn&#039;t that the point of the IDL?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />No.&nbsp; Invite-only, unadvertised, passworded servers, etc. etc. etc.&nbsp; We&#039;re not exactly the paragon of openness.&nbsp; This has been ridiculed by many, including me, and some of it was even my idea.&nbsp; But the point of IDL isn&#039;t to get as many players playing as possible.&nbsp; More players is certainly a goal, but it&#039;s subservient to the other goals of fun/fair/competitive IMO.&nbsp; I&#039;d forgive you for being confused, the recent push to get more players into IDL is because a lot of us (including me) think that without new players really soon, IDL will die.&nbsp; I like IDL, but I hate shitty games, and if IDL turns into a league where shitty games happen more often than not, then I&#039;ll hate it too.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />I guess not.&nbsp; We play 4v4 a shit ton in private.&nbsp; The only real reason the league is 3v3 is due to logistics.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I doubt it.&nbsp; We&#039;re talking seriously about expanding to 12 teams next season, which is 48 players (36 in the top 3).&nbsp; With 48 players, we can easily have a 4v4 league with 8 teams, 5 players a piece.&nbsp; So we assume we can get the players, but we&#039;re choosing more teams rather than a different format, which indicates that it&#039;s not a question of logistics.<br /><br />Personally I like 4v4 better.&nbsp; When I play 3v3 I feel like my main job is to frag as much as I can, and think later (something like 90% of the time the team with the most frags wins, I forget what the real numbers were but it was convincing).&nbsp; I&#039;m not a big fragger, and I feel like in 4v4 I can play the game the way I want to, which is a more nuanced, strategic game.&nbsp; Then again more players can turn into a shitfest, and maybe I feel like I&#039;m too weak to really compete in a 3v3, so who knows.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />[quote author=Ralphis link=topic=179.msg1585#msg1585 date=1267232320]I&#039;m sure that my situation has likely held the league back in terms of growth as time has passed and I&#039;m sure a bit of selfishness plays into this on my part.[/quote]<br /><br />Just a bit?&nbsp; ;)&nbsp; Hopefully this will not be an issue in the future.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I hope so too, but I hope that Ralphis is able to continue as commissioner, captain and player and that IDL can be public.&nbsp; The whole situation is really a great example of ZDaemon stupidity, from top to bottom, us and them.&nbsp; But I don&#039;t want to compromise until I have to.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=179.msg1586#msg1586 date=1267235020]Change in what way?&nbsp; I&#039;d argue that IDL went through a major change in Season 5, mostly all of which was Ralphis&#039; idea.&nbsp; In fact, the only thing I can think of in recent memory he said he&#039;d veto was switching to 4v4.&nbsp; I would also rather avoid a big change that destroys the league as opposed to doing the same thing next season.&nbsp; IDL is good enough, and it can be better.&nbsp; That doesn&#039;t mean we have to overhaul everything every season, that&#039;s madness.[/quote] <br /><br />What is it with you guys, putting crazy thoughts on everything.&nbsp; Slipperly slope much Ladna?&nbsp; You seem to be jumping to huge fucking conclusions in your own mind based on nothing.&nbsp; Did anyone say they want the IDL overhauled every season, WTF?&nbsp; No.&nbsp; Also I don&#039;t think the IDL player base is going anywhere too fast.&nbsp; We have proven to be remarkably resilient.&nbsp; I think we can risk some meaningful changes.&nbsp; Have faith in the player base.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I think most of the things you&#039;ve suggested are major changes.&nbsp; Changing to 4v4, in any capacity really, is a major change.&nbsp; Changing the way maps are selected and played is a major change.&nbsp; Maybe we just have different definitions.&nbsp; When I made that comment I was referring to your suggestions, which off the top of my head all seem major.&nbsp; I&#039;m not opposed to such change, or even specifically the changes you&#039;ve mentioned, but I want to have a reasonable and full discussion of the consequences before I go ahead with it.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Why can Ralph just veto anything like 4v4?&nbsp; What&#039;s the deal with that?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Rules are rules, and clearly spelled out on the site.&nbsp; Maybe you mean, &quot;why does Ralphis have so much power?&quot; and the answer is, &quot;he doesn&#039;t have as much power as you think&quot;.&nbsp; A 4/5 vote by the board overrides a veto, and this has happened before.&nbsp; However, usually it&#039;s to avoid tracking him down to get him to pass something, I can&#039;t remember the last time we actually overrode him.&nbsp; Most of the time the board agrees on things, the most divisive issue by far is captains and the invite list.&nbsp; Well maybe maps, but that&#039;s obvious right?&nbsp; Heh.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Why can&#039;t the players vote on things.&nbsp; Is the IDL really so fucking big that we need a government that isn&#039;t even representative to us?&nbsp; At least if the players pick things they will have no one to blame except themselves.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Because simply putting things to a huge vote makes in-depth discussion impossible.&nbsp; The board has voted on countless things, and if we had the community vote on each one we&#039;d still be counting.&nbsp; Plus the logistics are difficult, I could write a vote app, but do players want to be bugged?&nbsp; If players get to opt out, is that representative?<br /><br />Maybe those are weak arguments.&nbsp; It&#039;s hard to say that we don&#039;t do anything in secret, because if we did how would you guys know?&nbsp; Haha.&nbsp; I guess you&#039;ll just have to take my word for it.&nbsp; All the rules we have are on the site.&nbsp; All the changes we make are posted on the forums.&nbsp; I think that, if players give a shit, that it&#039;s real easy to double-click &#039;Ladna&#039; on IRC and be like:<br /><br />&quot;I fuckin hate 3v2.&nbsp; Goddamn man.&quot;<br /><br />I started to advocate that we require teams get 3 players together because my team was like, &quot;3v2 games are so retarded, they make me want to quit the league.&quot;&nbsp; This was maybe a week ago or so, and since then we&#039;ve pretty much decided to make that a rule.&nbsp; I think that&#039;s a pretty fast reaction time.<br /><br />Maybe you can argue that you&#039;ve wanted 3v2 and 2v1 games banned for years now.&nbsp; I suppose when I&#039;m arguing, I&#039;m really only referring to the time since the Board formed.&nbsp; Really everything before that was whatever you admin guys wanted to do, from what I understand.&nbsp; To me it&#039;s unfair to hold the current administration accountable for stuff that happened in seasons before 5, mostly because the only person who had anything to do with it was Ralphis, and this whole Doom CTF league was a pretty new idea.&nbsp; Anyway, from the time someone communicated directly to me that 3v2s were shitty, it took about a week for me to come up with a solution and get everyone on board, even less probably.&nbsp; But if players aren&#039;t gonna voice concerns, then I don&#039;t see what I can do. <br /><br />But hey, you guys are all players!&nbsp; What do you think about voting?&nbsp; If you have an opinion, put in the other, productive thread.&nbsp; Again we&#039;re always looking for ways to make the league better, if you think voting would do that, say so and why.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />I know some people on the board have the attitude that the players are all idiots and you have to lead us to the pot of gold but why can&#039;t the players vote on things?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I&#039;d be careful if I were you, because this sounds like something a huge asshole would say.&nbsp; Nobody in the administration thinks that, and to suggest that you &quot;know&quot; something like that is bullshit.&nbsp; I have a lot of respect for the players in this league, most of whom are much better at this game than I am, and I rely on everyone in the league to help the administration out when we&#039;re fucking up.&nbsp; I still think that that system works; if we ever make mistakes I expect we&#039;ll hear about them, if not, then I don&#039;t know what to do.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=179.msg1586#msg1586 date=1267235020]What do you mean, &quot;the fact is debating and winning arguments isn&#039;t what should decide how a league is run&quot;?&nbsp; How else are we supposed to decide things?[/quote]<br /><br />Some people will argue until anyone else gives up.&nbsp; I know because Ralph used to do that all the time with me.&nbsp; You can always come up with a fucking reason or rationalization why something will fail or not work.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah this is called taking a look at the possible pros and cons of a decision.&nbsp; There are often many of each for every issue.&nbsp; I would definitely call the board conservative, but I think that is best.&nbsp; I think that captains and players having a basic understanding of the way IDL works is important, and if we keep changing that all the time then it&#039;s hard to learn the game.&nbsp; Are you saying that IDL is too conservative?&nbsp; What would you have had us try in the last 2 1/2 seasons that would have made us less conservative?<br /><br />A cool idea that Nostar and I were discussing is to have a &quot;wild&quot; season in IDL.&nbsp; So like, Winter would be your normal 3v3 or whatever, basically the stuff that works.&nbsp; Summer is the time when we try ridiculous things.&nbsp; To me that would be a big relief, I&#039;d love the chance to try stuff without worrying that we&#039;d destroy IDL forever.<br /><br />I think that because IDL, and ZDDL also, have been so successful, we forget what happens to every other ZDaemon tournament and league.&nbsp; These leagues are really oddities; when we say that IDL is the longest-enduring CTF league in Doom&#039;s history, we really mean it and we&#039;re proud of it.&nbsp; I also have no idea why this is, and don&#039;t want to fuck with the voodoo that makes it work every season.&nbsp; I think that it&#039;s purely social.&nbsp; I tell my friends I have fun in IDL and get them to play with me.&nbsp; Chaindude tells his friends that IDL isn&#039;t gay this season and gets them to play.&nbsp; We try and make this happen as much as possible, and I would [b]LOVE[/b] suggestions to help out.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Until you fucking try it you don&#039;t know, do you?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />This is a crazy way to make decisions by the way.&nbsp; Until I try stabbing myself in the dick, I don&#039;t know if it will hurt!&nbsp; At some point, logic has to mean something.&nbsp; It&#039;s amazing how philosophical this debate has become.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=179.msg1586#msg1586 date=1267235020]These options blow.[/quote]<br /><br />Not as much as not playing a fair match.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />That&#039;s because you don&#039;t have to suffer the consequences, you just get to reap the benefits.&nbsp; You&#039;re not the one volunteering to check excuses, you&#039;re not the one coming up with a fair limit on 2v2 games, and you&#039;re definitely the one who will criticize us for forfeiting teams when we &quot;guess&quot; they&#039;re trying to cheat the league.&nbsp; This is an extremely selfish thing to say.&nbsp; &quot;Yeah I&#039;d rather have fun and make someone else do extra work to make it more fun!&quot;&nbsp; Goddamn.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Also Ladna I know you play politics too because you offered to let me upload a fake demo and I refused your scum bag ass.&nbsp;  8)&nbsp; Yeah but politics are all just conspiracy in my mind, huh?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah, it was pretty honorable of you too.&nbsp; IDK, to me, the demo rule is for posterity and finding cheaters.&nbsp; There are other demos of that game, and you clearly don&#039;t cheat, so I didn&#039;t want to punish you.&nbsp; Actually what I said was something like:<br /><br />[quote]<br />&lt;Ladna&gt; Hey upload a different demo<br />&lt;Ladna&gt; If someone figures it out you&#039;ll eventually have to admit you don&#039;t have it<br />&lt;Ladna&gt; But I won&#039;t say anything<br />&lt;Fastidious&gt; I won&#039;t upload a fake demo<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I wouldn&#039;t chalk it up to politics.&nbsp; I just think that punishing people for no reason is gay, and I wanted to avoid it.&nbsp; I&#039;ve actually never enforced a demo violation myself, and I freely admit that I am spineless.&nbsp; It would maybe be politics if you were on my team, or I liked you ;) .<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Also what was the deal with so many teams missing demos without penalty but I was going to have to miss a match over mine until I found the demos and re-uploaded them.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />The timeline of events is important here.&nbsp; When someone told me that your demos were missing/broken it was Week 2, and you were the only one with a demo problem.&nbsp; Thus penalizing you wouldn&#039;t be a complete fucking disaster.&nbsp; When I recently tried to make everyone upload their demos it was after Week 7, and there were like 40 demos missing.&nbsp; Penalizing all those players and teams would have been a complete fucking disaster.&nbsp; Awesome though I am, I don&#039;t have time to make sure that everything is running like it should be, so situations like this happen.<br /><br />So let&#039;s talk about what I decided to do, because I think my actions in both instances are debatable.&nbsp; I guess I couldn&#039;t have penalized you for your missing demos, because you actually had them, but let&#039;s say that you didn&#039;t, and the choice was between trying to help you skirt the rules and penalizing you.&nbsp; I mean, my position is clear :) .&nbsp; In the other case, should I have just penalized all those players with missing demos?<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Again seems like politics, people unfairly applying the rules.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Actually in this case, it was me fairly not applying the demo rule to anyone.&nbsp; I don&#039;t mean to split hairs here, but I haven&#039;t treated anyone differently.&nbsp; Fortunately, suggesting that people try and avoid punishment isn&#039;t against the rules!&nbsp; ;)&nbsp; OK I&#039;m a little proud of myself for this argument, I&#039;ll admit it.&nbsp; It is a good one.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />Doesn&#039;t even matter if the IDL has specific rules or not, people will do bullshit anyways.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah you&#039;re probably right.&nbsp; It&#039;s kind of part of the fun though.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />That is why I&#039;d like to see the players more involved on every level if possible.&nbsp; Then it is our fault if something stupid happens and we let it.&nbsp; Maybe the board should be bigger, maybe each captain should be a member, or maybe the league should just open voting on many things to the players.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I would love players to be more involved on every level.&nbsp; Gogogogogogoggogogogog.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=179.msg1606#msg1606 date=1267326736]<br />For the record I don&#039;t have any hard feelings towards anyone in this thread, hope it is likewise.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I also have no hard feelings.&nbsp; I think it&#039;s important to argue all sides vigorously, otherwise everyone loses.&nbsp; I&#039;m not the type to hold grudges anyway.&nbsp; UNLESS YOU QUIT IDL AS A CAPTAIN, THEN I WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU, AND CALL YOU OUT EVERY CHANCE I GET.&nbsp; Unless you are on my team, or I like you.