[quote author=Ladna link=topic=494.msg4670#msg4670 date=1314950095]So what?&nbsp; Some of the best IDL games have been tense, low-scoring games, and a lot of people agree with me.&nbsp; Sure they&#039;re not everyone&#039;s favorite, but IDL has a responsibility to incorporate maps that encourage all different types of play for two reasons:<br /><br />&nbsp; - It encourages mappers to explore different styles.<br />&nbsp; - It prevents one type of player from becoming dominant in IDL.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I feel like super defensive grind maps being equal as other &quot;style&quot; maps is a huge myth people are confused about.&nbsp; The reason those maps aren&#039;t great is because they force you to play their &quot;style&quot; without remorse.&nbsp; If you take a balanced map it can end up being played many different ways, you have choices!&nbsp; This is why maps which allow choices are better suited to the IDL.&nbsp; You can choose to try and grind out the balanced map but it&#039;ll be harder and require tough D on your part not just having a shitty map with crap chokepoints and all SSG spawns in base.<br /><br />Let&#039;s compare two good different maps.&nbsp; 31 and 3, most people would agree they are good maps both.&nbsp; Why are both maps good?&nbsp; They allow varying play and you still see people on them debating the merits of 2D or more mid or 2O rushes, etc.<br /><br />If you compare them to say a map I think most would never want to play CTF on again ZDCTF24 which is a super defensive grind map of the utmost.&nbsp; Do people argue about this map?&nbsp; Yes they do, but there really isn&#039;t any varying play choices on it unless you count praying versus giving up.&nbsp; You need to attack up a singular series of ramps in a lone hall way before coming to a dead end flag room.&nbsp; You can try and leave by teleporter but that&#039;s a trap since the enemy team will get a free shot on you, so instead your best bet is speed grabbing the flag and jumping the short wall as you race home.&nbsp; The problem is even if you killed anyone they respawn along your path with SSG and they know you can only take one route.&nbsp; Is this a fucking style?&nbsp; The style here is constraining the players to not allow choices, that&#039;s not a style but a lack of style.<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=494.msg4670#msg4670 date=1314950095]<br />Fastidious: Re: map13 vs. map16:<br /><br />Additionally it&#039;s not about item control hardly at all; you have very little opportunity to take your opponent&#039;s soulsphere &amp; megaarmor, so really it&#039;s about making the most of your own items (giving them to your runner), not about controlling them across the map.<br /><br />On the other hand, map16 is item control incarnate.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Huh?&nbsp; They are both strictly based on item control, you require getting those items which boost you to 200/200 to win more or less.&nbsp; Have you seen what happens to the other team on 13 when the enemy mid can steal a few blue armors?&nbsp; It&#039;s not pretty.&nbsp; Just because most teams aren&#039;t smart enough to realize that should be mid&#039;s primary goal doesn&#039;t mean item control there of your own items is a given.<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna link=topic=494.msg4670#msg4670 date=1314950095]<br />Whoa.&nbsp; Just because Quake has shitty weapons and a hard-on for item whoring doesn&#039;t make it &quot;deeper&quot; than Doom.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I wonder if Hatred thinks Quake is deeper than Doom.&nbsp; I&#039;m not saying Doom isn&#039;t as competitive as Quake because it is but it takes way more time to approach mastery in.