[quote author=Hatred link=topic=494.msg4767#msg4767 date=1316231617]The reality is the armor is probably only grabbed 13-15 times a match (and that&#039;s assuming it&#039;s a 10 minute match).[/quote]<br /><br />Most of your discussion is too theoretical where we&#039;d just end up going back and forth but I&#039;ll try.&nbsp; The part I quoted is why I think stealing a few blue armors is key.&nbsp; If you only get 15 a match and the other team can steal 5 of those you get basically 2/3 the offensive best chances you should have gotten.&nbsp; It can also throw off the timing of the armor for the runner or just confuse them.&nbsp; If one team has mid control stealing the armor is a lot easier and wrestling mid control away is not easy unless you weaken D.&nbsp; You need someone standing at the flag almost all times on D there, else flag grabs are too easy and you lose track of where the flag runner went.&nbsp; Smart flag runners can pick off D from below or attack from above route while taking minimum damage to their 200/200 stack.&nbsp; Success is usually magnified based on the stack, 200/100 or 0/200 does not quite work out as well.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=494.msg4767#msg4767 date=1316231617]I don&#039;t know if I&#039;d say it&#039;s deeper than Doom; it certainly takes more time to master. Doom CTF is actually really complex sometimes and I&#039;d argue based on how fast it&#039;s played and how it requires a great deal of coordination to be good at, it&#039;s on it&#039;s own level of &quot;deepness.&quot; [/quote]<br /><br />Seems like you are afraid to admit it, it&#039;s OK.&nbsp; ;D&nbsp; You know Quake CTF and TDM are damned complex, more so than Doom CTF or TDM.&nbsp; Doom is elegant however, I think Quake lost that in Q3 and QL by dumbing everything down to equality.&nbsp; QW is the most closely related to Doom gameplay style and the best Quake.&nbsp; Complexity comes at a price however, movement in Quake takes ages to excel at and you never completely master it.