This is an interesting issue, but some of these arguments are really getting on my nerves.<br /><br />- This map sucks in PCTF<br /><br />PCTF isn&#039;t IDL.&nbsp; Until every PCTF game is 3v3, this really isn&#039;t a valid complaint.<br /><br />- I hate this map<br /><br />While no one wants to force shitty maps on anyone, it&#039;s extremely difficult to objectively say what makes a map shitty.&nbsp; We only recently got any stats on maps (thanks Fast!) and even those change over seasons as competitive play evolves.<br /><br />- It&#039;s impossible to score on this map<br /><br />So what?&nbsp; Some of the best IDL games have been tense, low-scoring games, and a lot of people agree with me.&nbsp; Sure they&#039;re not everyone&#039;s favorite, but IDL has a responsibility to incorporate maps that encourage all different types of play for two reasons:<br /><br />&nbsp; - It encourages mappers to explore different styles.<br />&nbsp; - It prevents one type of player from becoming dominant in IDL.<br /><br />This also applies to maps that are extremely difficult to defend (map13), maps that are weird (map32), etc. etc.<br /><br />- We need more space in the IDL WAD.<br /><br />AFAIK there&#039;s no limit on the number of maps in a WAD.&nbsp; What&#039;s really worse is the amount of junk needed in the WAD because all the maps are from lots of different WADs.&nbsp; But again that&#039;s just pain in the ass (although admittedly it&#039;s a big pain in the ass) for whoever compiles it, no one else cares.<br /><br />===<br /><br />Now for my soapboxing:<br /><br />You cannot remove maps that previously hosted Masterbowls from the IDL WAD.&nbsp; You also can&#039;t remove 1/4/8.&nbsp; So if we stick with 32 maps, that&#039;s 19 slots you have to work with.&nbsp; There&#039;s no reason maps can&#039;t come back, and there&#039;s no reason PCTF can&#039;t use some other WAD or whatever.&nbsp; ZDDL has 4 core maps and they vote the 5th one in every year.&nbsp; It&#039;s not like if we drop map11 from the list that we&#039;ll never see it again.&nbsp; The only thing we should really be religious about are Masterbowl maps and 1/4/8.&nbsp; Everything else should be up for grabs.<br /><br />Fastidious: Re: map13 vs. map16:<br /><br />You can&#039;t say maps are the same because they have soulspheres in them.&nbsp; Specifically map13 &amp; map16; these maps play so differently I have to wonder if you didn&#039;t contract a brutal brain parasite in Asia.<br /><br />map13 is a great map.&nbsp; Some players don&#039;t like it but they&#039;re bad at it, and they probably forget that it was both a Masterbowl map and host to probably the biggest upset of all time (VGR vs. PAK).&nbsp; Additionally it&#039;s not about item control hardly at all; you have very little opportunity to take your opponent&#039;s soulsphere &amp; megaarmor, so really it&#039;s about making the most of your own items (giving them to your runner), not about controlling them across the map.&nbsp; Additionally standoffs are actually fun in this map because of the lifts, gate &amp; teleporters.<br /><br />On the other hand, map16 is item control incarnate.&nbsp; There are two soulspheres, a megasphere, and two green armors; if you fail to control at least the megasphere you will get raped.&nbsp; It&#039;s also a map where a team that isn&#039;t SSG heavy can beat a super-frag team with teamwork and smart running.&nbsp; Yeah it turns into a shitfest 4v4 and up.&nbsp; Thankfully IDL is a 3v3 league, so no problem then.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=494.msg4661#msg4661 date=1314810693]<br />One funny thing about Quake is I have no problem playing the same maps there forever but that&#039;s probably because Quake is a much deeper game skill wise than Doom.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Whoa.&nbsp; Just because Quake has shitty weapons and a hard-on for item whoring doesn&#039;t make it &quot;deeper&quot; than Doom.&nbsp; In fact, having been forced to watch a lot of Quake by Nostar &amp; mikehail, I feel confident when I say that Quake is:<br /><br />&nbsp; - Whore the megahealth<br />&nbsp; - Whore the armor<br />&nbsp; - Whore the weapons<br />&nbsp; - Whore the megahealth, armor, and weapons<br />&nbsp; - Don&#039;t forget to whore all the items, including the megahealth, armor, and weapons<br />&nbsp; - If you out-aim your opponent even by a tiny amount you win (forget about movement, prediction, or item whoring)<br />&nbsp; - If you&#039;re winning, run the fuck away<br /><br /> ::)<br /><br />