Kilgore recently posted this in [url=http://forums.zdaemon.org/viewtopic.php?p=251706#251706]Yo Yo Pt. 2[/url]:<br /><br />[quote author=Kilgore]Finally.. I&#039;ll say it again: I didn&#039;t insult Ladna or any person in particular[/quote]<br /><br />He calls me &quot;dumb&quot; in his conversation with Nostar [url=http://pastebin.com/VvjrN6mC]here[/url].&nbsp; Not only that, he admits to ignoring me over and over again.<br /><br />He&#039;s also extremely rude to Kitty [url=http://forums.zdaemon.org/viewtopic.php?p=251465#251465]here[/url]:<br /><br />[quote author=Kilgore]<br />Kitty: I&#039;m glad you show us your feelings. Let&#039;s just say that they&#039;re mutual; [b]don&#039;t let the door hit you on your way out[/b]. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />And honestly, I&#039;m nowhere near this thin-skinned.&nbsp; But when my post, that neither names nor insults him, is considered &quot;extremely rude&quot;, and his conversation that both names and insults me is completely forgotten, I just have to call hypocrisy here.&nbsp; And this isn&#039;t some trivial crap about feelings being hurt, he&#039;s talking about forum bans because of a forum post that, again, neither names nor insults him.<br /><br />Oh hey, it looks like he even uses my own logic here:<br /><br />[quote author=Kilgore]<br />you guys seem to be worked up about my &quot;random person&quot; reference. Re-read what I typed: I didn&#039;t refer to Ladna or any person specifically. That person could be Donald Knuth or John Carmack for all I care; it&#039;s the same to me.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Alright, let&#039;s re-read what you typed:<br /><br />[quote author=Kilgore]<br />[b]Ladna[/b] and his IRC bot: even if we wanted to support the IDL (which we don&#039;t), there is no way we&#039;d let random people run bots on our chat server: there was a reason we went to the trouble of making our own chat client and our own server, and that was to control what sort of software runs in there. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />It looks like, yeah, that&#039;s definitely my name up there.&nbsp;  ::)<br /><br />If we&#039;re going to be reasonable people, we have to examine our own behavior and its consequences.&nbsp; We have to not hold others to a higher standard than we hold ourselves.&nbsp; In this case, Kilgore behaves obviously worse than I, but I&#039;m the one with a forum ban.&nbsp; Awesome.<br /><br />Finally, I&#039;d like to re-visit the post that Kilgore (or someone) deleted from the ZD forums that I cross-posted here (the OP post at the top of this thread).&nbsp; Nothing in that post is rude in the slightest.&nbsp; In fact, let me quote the strongest part of it:<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna]<br />However, as of today I&#039;ve decided that I&#039;m no longer willing to support ZDaemon.&nbsp; ZDaemon&#039;s administration has nothing but contempt for me and my efforts to contribute to the community.&nbsp; It regards me as subversive, annoying, and stupid - and I&#039;m using the administration&#039;s words here.&nbsp; After over 2 years of devoting huge amounts of my time and money attempting to contribute to ZDaemon, I&#039;m finally taking the hint and taking down nearly all of TotalTrash&#039;s servers.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />There&#039;s nothing rude about any of that.&nbsp; No one&#039;s named or insulted, I don&#039;t swear, and (if I do say so myself) it&#039;s very well-written!&nbsp; If this is the kind of thing that&#039;s considered &quot;rude&quot; by the ZDaemon administration, then I don&#039;t know what to do.&nbsp; Apparently no differing opinions can be expressed in public ever.<br /><br />[hr]<br /><br />Regarding &quot;saving ZDaemon&quot;, I wouldn&#039;t be so melodramatic about it.&nbsp; ZDaemon is just a game, and there&#039;s still a significant amount of people that play it and want to contribute to it.&nbsp; I would never even consider doing something like &quot;usurping&quot; ZDaemon&#039;s services with a new website, reverse-engineered master, etc.&nbsp; Not only is that a dirt-bag thing to do (it might even be illegal regarding ZDaemon&#039;s usage license), I think if you have the ability and time to do that kind of thing, it&#039;s better spent working on a port that doesn&#039;t treat you like dirt.<br /><br />You know what the administration could do?&nbsp; Un-delete my &quot;TT is closing&quot; thread, or come here and have a discussion.&nbsp; We can act like adults and talk to each other, rather than ignore each other, threaten each other, and silence each other.&nbsp; Well, actually that&#039;s just what Kilgore did to me, but you get the point.<br /><br />[hr]<br /><br />And lastly, because this has really frustrated me lately, there&#039;s a difference between a &quot;PR campaign&quot; and expressing yourself.&nbsp; I don&#039;t even know what a PR campaign entails.&nbsp; Buying internet ads?&nbsp; Making ad videos and posting them?&nbsp; If I make a forum post that disagrees with the ZDaemon administration, it&#039;s not a PR campaign, [b]it&#039;s me disagreeing with them[/b].&nbsp; If a lot of people agree with me, [b]it&#039;s a lot of people disagreeing with them[/b].&nbsp; I&#039;m not making anything up, and I&#039;m not leaving anything out of my account of events (unlike Kilgore&#039;s account of the GetWAD incident), and in no way am I trying to convince anyone that what I think is right.&nbsp; Of course, if Kilgore or any admin/mod posted a response to anything I&#039;ve ever posted and didn&#039;t lock/delete the thread, then yeah, I&#039;d engage in a reasonable, polite debate.&nbsp; But maybe that&#039;s &quot;causing trouble&quot;, I don&#039;t know.<br /><br />[hr]<br /><br />Oh, more junk:<br /><br />[quote author=Kilgore]<br />Supernova: if you quote that thread about demos and you&#039;re saying it explains why he was offended... I don&#039;t know what to say. That particular thread shows precisely how he acted in bad faith; all devs were extremely offended by the tone/attitude. It was my mistake of not reacting appropriately back then; I wish I had. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Let me quote anything strong from that post here:<br /><br />[quote author=Ladna]<br />[quote author=EarthQuake]<br />Basically, the demo system originally developed by id Software was not intended to have such features.<br />[/quote]<br />I imagine this is the same for all the stuff in ZDaemon that&#039;s not in Doom II or ZDoom 1.22 or CSDoom. That&#039;s why it&#039;s called a &quot;feature request&quot;.<br /><br />[quote author=EarthQuake]<br />You should probably be thankful for the demo support we already have.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Can we just assume I&#039;m thankful for ZDaemon by virtue of all the crap I do for the community, or do I have to put it at the top of every post like some pathetic sycophant? And I thought this was the &quot;feature requests&quot; section of the forums.<br /><br />[quote author=EarthQuake]<br />You might also do a little research before posting more requests,<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Where and for what? And don&#039;t say &quot;the forums&quot; because there&#039;s something like hundreds of threads and millions of posts. There&#039;s no way I&#039;m combing through that crap. I&#039;ll be glad to setup a wiki and a bug tracker on my own server and in my own time (or someone else&#039;s server I don&#039;t really care), but this &quot;try searching the forums&quot; thing has got to stop.<br /><br />Frankly I&#039;d love to read the source. I&#039;ve been reading Odamex&#039;s source a lot lately and I have a hugely better understanding of Doom now - or at least Odamex&#039;s version of Doom anyway.<br /><br />[quote author=EarthQuake]<br />so Kilgore doesn&#039;t have any more aneurysms.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I&#039;d be glad to help, but any code I might contribute gets eaten up in the big, closed-source blob that is ZDaemon, so I don&#039;t really know what else to do.<br /><br />And on a wholly unrelated note, if the general response to, &quot;hey I love ZDaemon, but here&#039;s something that, imo, would make it better&quot; is:<br /><br />- You have no idea how ZDaemon works.<br />- Did you spend a requisite amount of time searching the forums?<br />- This is totally impossible.<br />- You should be thankful for ZDaemon as it stands.<br />- Just requesting these features is too much of a load on the dev team, let alone implementing them. How selfish!<br /><br />then I suggest taking this section of the forums down, because it seems like feature requests aren&#039;t really wanted. Honestly, I&#039;m not snapping my fingers and making the dev team recook my damn steak, and I don&#039;t feel like I need to go around with the attitude of:<br /><br />&quot;Thank you so much Lord Jesus for the gift of ZDaemon. I know you had better things to do, but you love us gamers so much that you toiled and toiled endlessly so I could waste my life playing this terrific game.&quot;<br /><br />Come on. If a developer feels that way about ZDaemon then they should quit, and if they all feel that way, they should open the source up and retire.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Note how no one is insulted, and how my entire post follows the flow of EarthQuake&#039;s original post (who, it turns out, is actually a cool guy).&nbsp; Kilgore says the entire dev team was insulted by my tone/attitude.&nbsp; If tone/attitude gets you banned from the ZDaemon forums, then I don&#039;t know what to do.&nbsp; In no way did I act in &quot;bad faith&quot;, and if anyone felt like it, the reasonable, adult thing to do is say something like:<br /><br />&quot;Hey Ladna.&nbsp; I was really offended by your tone in your post the other day, why would you say things like that?&quot;<br /><br />And then I&#039;d explain that I felt like I was attacked, and that I certainly didn&#039;t mean to offend anyone.&nbsp; And beyond that, that I felt like the ZD forums were turning into a bunch of yes men and players too afraid to say what they thought because of rampant thread-locking and banning.&nbsp; Although I suppose if you don&#039;t want to examine your own behavior, then the logical thing to do is just lock threads and yell at people.&nbsp; Cool.<br /><br />[quote author=Kilgore]<br />I&#039;ve about had it with ZDdrama.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Then quit deleting posts, locking threads, and threatening people.&nbsp; This is all you buddy.