[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg283#msg283 date=1219704784]<br />I can bring up quite a few specific examples but I&#039;ll just touch on one at the end of the season which I brought to many people&#039;s attention(admins) but was ignored over and over.&nbsp; Beast didn&#039;t submit his demos before he played us in week 9 and AFAIK Blood was supposed to sit a round.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I spammed Beast and Tai in #idl that he needed to upload his demo, and I got no response.&nbsp; I saw him playing in that game even though he hadn&#039;t uploaded his demo, but I also knew you were opposed to the demo rule in the first place and I figured you just decided to let it go.&nbsp; Honestly, if you knew he didn&#039;t upload his demo and you weren&#039;t OK with that, you shouldn&#039;t have let him play.&nbsp; You&#039;re an admin and you&#039;re captain of the opposing team. He had it (he uploaded it later), so it wasn&#039;t a huge deal, but I really feel like there&#039;s a lot of responsibility on the captains to make sure they&#039;re not being taken advantage of.&nbsp; There&#039;s always a post in new weeks of who still needs to upload demos, but more importantly, I&#039;m not going to bust into servers and kick people who haven&#039;t uploaded demos in the middle of games.&nbsp; Then again, maybe an admin needs to be present for every game to make sure stuff like this doesn&#039;t happen.&nbsp; This might be feasible if scheduling is fixed.<br /><br />Bloodstrike&#039;s situation is kind of convoluted.&nbsp; He played Week 2, but didn&#039;t show up for Week 3 and hadn&#039;t uploaded a demo.&nbsp; We viewed this as not uploading a demo, and sitting out a round... even if he sat out the whole match.&nbsp; He also didn&#039;t make it for Week 4, so there&#039;s no missing demos there.&nbsp; Week 5 he played, and didn&#039;t upload a demo.&nbsp; Week 6 he showed up in server where Ralphis and I hassled him about not uploading his Week 5 demo.&nbsp; He promised he had it, Tai agreed to overturn the match if Bloodstrike couldn&#039;t produce the Week 5 demo.&nbsp; Week 6 was played, and Bloodstrike didn&#039;t upload any demo, neither Week 5 nor Week 6.&nbsp; I talked it over with Ralphis, and we agreed to eject Bloodstrike from the league (because this would be the 3rd demo infraction) and overturn FFF&#039;s Week 6 win.&nbsp; I informed FFF of all of this, and Tai was extremely cool about the whole thing.&nbsp; Bloodstrike hears that he&#039;s been ejected and suddenly starts uploading demos.&nbsp; We decide it&#039;s more beneficial to the league if Bloodstrike can possibly stay on FFF, so we accept them, and reinstate him.&nbsp; Unfortunately, Bloodstrike&#039;s demoing wasn&#039;t working properly, and all of his demos were corrupt (he&#039;d uploaded Week 2, 5 and 6).&nbsp; We made a good faith gesture (again, because we felt it was more beneficial to the league that he stay on FFF) and allowed him to stay on FFF, but we still overturned the Week 6 game and he would have to sit Week 8 (FFF had a BYE on Week 7).&nbsp; Bloodstrike either sat or didn&#039;t show up for Week 8, and played Week 9.<br /><br />Now I agree that none of this was made clear, but no one asked me either.&nbsp; Since it was brought up, I answered it.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg283#msg283 date=1219704784]<br />Blood never submitted his Week 9 demo so what would have happened if he showed up for playoffs?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />We generally have the cutoff for uploading demos as &quot;before the next game&quot;.&nbsp; If your team plays a game and you haven&#039;t uploaded a demo... even if you yourself don&#039;t play that game, the time is passed.&nbsp; As far as I&#039;m concerned, as soon as FFF vs. MAD happened, Bloodstrike was ejected from the league.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg283#msg283 date=1219704784]<br />And why do I have to record demos?&nbsp; To accommodate people we were suspicious about since they have shady histories(?).&nbsp; Stuff like that makes me disgusted with the IDL.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />You specifically (and this applies to everyone) have to record demos because it&#039;s better than treating a handful of IDL players as pariahs.&nbsp; I try to watch every POV demo, I don&#039;t always get it done.&nbsp; I [b]DO[/b] have a list of players I keep an eye on (and I would think other people do too) because I&#039;m suspicious of them, but demos aren&#039;t just for players we&#039;re suspicious of.&nbsp; For instance, when BBS played RNB, I had the flag in RNB&#039;s flag room and was waiting where the Green armor spawns.&nbsp; Gilgamesh ran right over and shot me, and at the time I thought, &quot;there is no fucking way he could see me, what the hell?&quot;.&nbsp; But, when I watched his demo, there&#039;s a glitch on Map26 where you can see the flag through that thing.&nbsp; That&#039;s how he saw me.&nbsp; Now, I&#039;m not suspicious of Gilgamesh, I think he&#039;s a clean player and a good dude.&nbsp; But after that, if I hadn&#039;t had the opportunity to watch his demo (without accusing him of cheating and demanding one... generally causing a lot of drama), I would have been suspicious of him.&nbsp; Demos are as much about finding cheaters as they are about proving clean play and keeping suspicion out of the league.&nbsp; Hell, they&#039;re even useful as records of games, and scouting for future seasons.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg283#msg283 date=1219704784]<br />Unfair matches aren&#039;t good enough for me when we don&#039;t have to have them.&nbsp; Demo rules which punish innocent players to let suspicious players play is not good enough.&nbsp; Our team playing fair 2v2s then other teams not reciprocating, is not good enough.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah, it&#039;s lame that ZD bugged on you and you had to sit a round against WAD.&nbsp; But Nostar had no obligation to make one of his players sit because GaX was on Mars and your client bugged.&nbsp; It wouldn&#039;t have been fair to WAD, and his obligation as captain isn&#039;t to RNB, it&#039;s to his own team.&nbsp; In other sports, when a team is penalized, the league doesn&#039;t penalize the opposing team to make things &quot;fair&quot;.&nbsp; When a team is forced to play with an injured player (GaX &amp; his ***), the league doesn&#039;t force the opposing team to cut its roster down.&nbsp; Sometimes bad shit happens to players and teams, but it&#039;s not the league&#039;s responsibility to make things equally bad for the opposing team so that things are &quot;fair&quot;.&nbsp; And you can say all you want about IDL not being a real sport, but it&#039;s at least a competitive gaming league, and the parallels are the same.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg283#msg283 date=1219704784]<br />Rules only being followed sometimes is not good enough.&nbsp; &nbsp;Captains refusing to talk to me to schedule or ignoring me is not good enough.&nbsp; Teams treating their worse player like they don&#039;t exist is not good enough.&nbsp; Our team having to wait beyond our scheduled time, while other teams practice for the first time of the week on late Sunday night, is not good enough.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Scheduling is still a fuck-up, I agree.&nbsp; Hopefully we can figure it out.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg286#msg286 date=1219709695]<br />There are also lots of issues where captains are in charge of decisions but admins let them make bad decisions repeatedly.&nbsp; Many teams are allowed to languish with only 3 active players just because their captain for whatever reason doesn&#039;t show interest in picking another player.&nbsp; I think in situations like that the rules or admins should step in as it helps the league to have more solid teams and more players.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I kinda agree, one of the worst things that can happen to IDL is a captain totally unbalancing teams with bad drafts/trades, etc.&nbsp; I think combined with some kind of attendance policy you&#039;d see a lot of this stuff go away.&nbsp; You wouldn&#039;t have teams putting up with unreliable players, and you wouldn&#039;t have players signing up, then disappearing if they don&#039;t get on the team they want.&nbsp; I think you have to walk a fine line between keeping the league strong, and backseat-captaining... otherwise you might see some captains quit.&nbsp; But overall I like the idea.&nbsp; This could extend to some kind of arbitration if an unbalanced game is about to happen, admins could decide whether a 2v2 is more or less fair than a 3v2 for instance.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg286#msg286 date=1219709695]<br />Yes, I pm&#039;d quite a few people about it(and the #idlops chan).&nbsp; I&#039;m an admin too but I&#039;m not going to force an issue like that in a game I&#039;m playing in, it&#039;s not right.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />That&#039;s an interesting point about conflict of interest... and I think the only way to resolve that is to make sure there&#039;s more than 1 available admin.&nbsp; Of course, I think this would be easier if games are scheduled properly, admins could see when they&#039;re needed and maybe be on an hour before &amp; after.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg286#msg286 date=1219709695]<br />It seems no one cares enough to fix it.&nbsp; The fact it&#039;s all accepted just because it happens over and over is the current situation.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Yeah, I think Tenchu fed me that line Week 1 when there was a dispute about our game.&nbsp; &quot;Come on man, in other seasons lots of games were played at 2am&quot;.&nbsp; Doesn&#039;t make it any less gay.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg286#msg286 date=1219709695]<br />I&#039;ve suggested various fixes from stuff like forced scheduling to changed rules.&nbsp; Perhaps some code&#039;s of conduct, stricter scheduling that is actually enforced, it&#039;s not rocket science.&nbsp; Honestly at this point I do want everything fixed but at the same time I&#039;m almost certainly going to sit out next season and just see what happens.&nbsp; In the end it&#039;s up the players and captains...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I think forced scheduling is a good idea, even if it requires more admin involvement.&nbsp; There&#039;s probably something we can work out so every game scheduling doesn&#039;t require an admin watching over the whole thing... like posting possible game times on the forums and agreeing on the forums.&nbsp; Maybe part of the problem is a lot of this stuff happens on IRC and isn&#039;t logged... so there&#039;s no public review and there&#039;s no record.&nbsp; It is a little irritating that teams can&#039;t seem to schedule games consistently and fairly (there WERE lots of teams that did really well with scheduling, btw), but I guess we have to assume there&#039;s going to be snafus along the way.&nbsp; We could even designate say... Thursdays and Sundays (or Saturdays...?) as IDL Game Days.&nbsp; Just throwing stuff out there.<br /><br />[quote author=Fastidious link=topic=26.msg283#msg283 date=1219704784]<br />Ladna I&#039;m happy you think the IDL is great, I think it has a lot of things that could be changed or at least attempted to be fixed.&nbsp; Anyhow if everyone likes how the IDL is, that&#039;s fine.&nbsp; To me a lot of things are not good enough.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />I do think the IDL is great, but I get also pretty frustrated with things like you do.&nbsp; There are lots of things to discuss and work out (the captaining system, map choice, unbalanced teams, scheduling, and so on), maybe we should wait until after the masterbowl (after the first couple weeks of classes) to have it out.