Although I&#039;ll respond to a few points, I would like to have more player opinions on the board as per intention. Nonetheless, I will respond to a few posts pointing to mine.&nbsp; ;D<br /><br />[quote author=MassVC link=topic=544.msg5485#msg5485 date=1322632611]Anyway, I assume this is just rhetoric for attention-seeking&#039;s sake.[/quote]<br /><br />I appreciate your expression for dismissal, but you could have stuck to your guns with:<br /><br />[quote]---<br />&lt;Xen`-`&gt; I hope you all board people intend to reply to chow&#039;s topic<br />..<br />&lt;Mass&gt; probably not<br />---[/quote]<br /><br /> ;D<br /><br />[quote]Unfortunately most of the players (including you, although you just sort of made a comeback with the internet and so on) aren&#039;t very vocal, or haven&#039;t been until 12:20 AM today.[/quote]<br /><br />I&#039;m probably more vocal than anyone else when it comes to IDL. But hey, you don&#039;t talk to me, I don&#039;t talk to you. I&#039;m putting word out there now because I think it is something that needs to be discussed. <br /><br />Hell, I was the primary complainer about season length and bye weeks. Look at where those ended up after players began agreeing with me. The board took smart action listening to the voices in the player base and changed it around. It is something I look at with a slight array of hope when the board comes into discussion.<br /><br />Same thing with the map choices. I complained to no end and finally players are getting &#039;round to some of the BS this time. I&#039;m not trying to put it as a &quot;ME ME ME&quot; sort of thing, just some things are plain obvious and the board seems more or less isolated from the player base.<br /><br />We could do with some better involvement from the board. The better that is, the more successful the experience can be.<br /><br />BTW, you can expect more threads in the future.<br /><br />[quote]For example, see: http://forums.intldoomleague.org/index.php?topic=460.0.[/quote]<br /><br />Which is good. I&#039;m not slamming that by any means. There should be more of it overall.<br /><br />[quote] Only administrators or past administrators commented on the subject at all. You (all) had four months to respond; you didn&#039;t; then a couple of weeks later we voted on all of these changes.&nbsp; I can only assume that everybody loves our changes!&nbsp; Because they didn&#039;t say otherwise.&nbsp; If you can think of some way to get everybody to participate in these discussions that we haven&#039;t, be our guest.&nbsp; But know they already exist.[/quote]<br /><br />I do remember that time, and alot of people were totally unaware about the trade fiasco that amounted to that idea. Lack of information is key here, and a few people dropped the ball on that one.<br /><br />If even the players are less informed than myself well, something needs to be done.<br /><br />Secondly, as I said, the forum can be a more powerful tool. It is just underplayed in how great it can be. Look at how many people signed up here in order to post a sign-up for IDL. I&#039;m sure more than a couple would give some form of serious input if it was presented stronger.<br /><br />Typically, the board is seen as the final frontier, and like I said they just seem isolated from the rest of the players. I can&#039;t cut slack for people not <br /><br />[quote]I&#039;m not just being sarcastic.[/quote]<br /><br /> ::) (I love that smiley)<br /><br />[quote]I do appreciate you voicing your opinion[/quote]<br /><br /> ::) (Last time, I swear...)<br /><br />[quote]and if you look at the discussions I&#039;ve been involved in lately on the forums, you&#039;ll see that I am [b]100% in favor of democratically running the IDL[/b] (among, of course, those players who intend to play and thus will be affected by the voting).&nbsp; Unforunately, it is more difficult to do than to say.[/quote]<br /><br />I agree it gets difficult, which is why I suggested should changes be seriously considered that they be done progressively. You know, baby steps. After all, you have to crawl before you walk.<br /><br />[quote]&quot;Let&#039;s choose maps democratically!&quot;&nbsp; Great, let&#039;s do it.&nbsp; How?&nbsp; How do you use democratic votes to choose new maps for the wad?&nbsp; How do you decide how many maps to replace, which maps to replace, and which new maps will be introduced?&nbsp; What exactly would the vote be, and how do you process the results?&nbsp; I have some education on the subject, but I cannot figure it out myself.[/quote]<br /><br />I can rock with the exaggeration of my democracy (which was seen more as an end-goal in my post, but I know you guys like to pick tidbits and argue in absolutes&nbsp; ::)).<br /><br />We can all spot the bad maps from a mile away, many of us are extremely vocal about it, especially during privs. That in itself is a starting point. Just have a look at Xen&#039;s maps topic, which I HIGHLY commend him for. He took the initiative upon seeing the backlash on IRC to get something more organized going on the forum. The man should be applauded and awarded the proper blowjobs.<br /><br />It is just a starting point. MANY of us hate the Christmas map, map14, and would really appreciate bringing back ZD07.<br /><br />I guess this is slowly turning into more of the board not having enough ear to the community than anything else. But let&#039;s carry on!<br /><br />[quote]Now suppose there is such a fair system.&nbsp; (There isn&#039;t.)&nbsp; The problem, which is the same as with American democracy, is that most of the IDL players would not vote because they are teenage video game players who do not give a shit about draft order determination.&nbsp; I am not putting them down; we vocal players are the freaks who care about DOOM draft order while they are getting laid on the roof.&nbsp; Such a vote will reflect the vocal minority, not the opinion of the player base as a whole.&nbsp; That minority will not even attempt to reflect the whole of the players.[/quote]<br /><br />Right, this is one of those situations where the board can come in handy, but you beat me to it with...<br /><br />[quote]The board, on the other hand, is at least supposed to ask people what they want (again, the thread) and then try to decide what will be the most fun for the whole league.[/quote]<br /><br />...and that doesn&#039;t happen too often.<br /><br />[quote]This sounds like an accusation that there is a secret underground plot to put BPCTF Map26 in the wad for the board&#039;s personal gain, aheheahawheha..<br /><br />[size=5]AAHAFHEUHEHAAGHAHH[/size]<br /><br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br /> :o<br /><br />[quote author=nostar link=topic=544.msg5484#msg5484 date=1322631862]<br />I&#039;d like some evidence for the shady PM deals over votes and rules.[/quote]<br /><br />Right. I would [b]gladly[/b] paste logs from various leakers (glorious days in the DX channel), but as you know my all-knowing IRC log dating back to a couple years ago is stuck on another drive. Of course, anyone privy to these actions can gladly speak up, but I can only name one I&#039;ve personally been involved in since I have only played two seasons, which involved heavy PM lobbying of board members to get a player reinstated. Of course its just one situation, but I know it is minor compared to some other things I have logged up.&nbsp; 8)<br /><br />You could just write me off as a liar, but I have no reason to.<br /><br />But of course, even someone like you who&#039;s done a few can probably admit to such things going on, but most likely won&#039;t.&nbsp; ::)<br /><br />[b]EDIT: Actually found some logs on my iPod.[/b] And look what we have here, involving you no less. (starred named for privacy concerns&nbsp; ;))<br /><br />[quote]Oct 18 20:58:55 &lt;***&gt;	I dont think they will let me play<br />Oct 18 20:59:05 &lt;cha0tix&gt;	why not<br />Oct 18 20:59:07 &lt;***&gt;	so far I am told the board is not in favor<br />Oct 18 20:59:11 &lt;***&gt;	2-1 against me so far<br />Oct 18 20:59:18 &lt;***&gt;	3/5 rules<br />Oct 18 20:59:45 &lt;***&gt;	and I hear ralph can veto<br />Oct 18 20:59:54 &lt;***&gt;	and I hear he will veto me if I get 3<br />Oct 18 21:00:14 &lt;cha0tix&gt;	haha do you have to punk bill apter to get seen in a good light? this doesn&#039;t look good for you<br />Oct 18 21:00:31 &lt;***&gt;	well nostar got mike<br />Oct 18 21:00:34 &lt;***&gt;	he is trying to bribe Denny<br />Oct 18 21:00:44 &lt;***&gt;	and he can pull Ladna&#039;s tail<br />Oct 18 21:00:46 &lt;***&gt;	so I might get 3<br />Oct 18 21:00:57 &lt;***&gt;	but bones and mantis are deadset against me from what I hear<br />Oct 18 21:01:10 &lt;***&gt;	cause they want reliable people I suppose<br />[/quote]<br /><br />One more...<br /><br />[quote]Dec 11 20:02:04 &lt;***&gt;	Nostar is blackmailing him<br />Dec 11 20:02:14 *	cha0tix leans in.<br />Dec 11 20:02:15 &lt;***&gt;	He is threatening to quit<br />Dec 11 20:02:24 &lt;***&gt;	cause he hates the board members and new rules[/quote]<br /><br />Of course just one tidbit mentioned in passing in #DarkAlley. I&#039;ll keep looking.&nbsp; :-*<br /><br />[quote]As to the issue of a &quot;true democracy&quot;. It&#039;s not an outlandish suggestion but the theory in practice would most likely get messy and bring a slew of new and unresolvable problems. First of all there is no hierarchy in this system, hence the unresolvable. Allowing that premise, you could resort to majority rule as the defacto standard for affecting change. I would say this is the likely course of events.[/quote]<br /><br />I&#039;d imagine we wouldn&#039;t be in total unorganized chaos. We&#039;d still need a Fuhrer to kind of steer us in a direction as most leagues do. I&#039;d just gradually shift more decisions to the standard player base, or at least those who cared enough to vote.<br /><br />[quote]For instance there are a lot of people who go to school for physics. I don&#039;t. Should my opinion about the Relativistic momentum paradox be taken in the same stride as theirs? FUCK NO&gt;!@&gt;E#@[/quote]<br /><br />So the people who don&#039;t play shouldn&#039;t have as strong opinions as those that do? Someone said it best with &quot;instead of asking what is it going to take to get people who play to sign up, let&#039;s ask those that don&#039;t play what&#039;s it going to take for them to sign up&quot;.<br /><br />[quote]Additionally If it came down to sheer numbers in what affects change there is a phrase for that. It is [b]Mob Mentality[/b].[/quote]<br /><br />I see the vocal majority/minority as a great starting point for decision making.<br /><br />[quote]In that light I imagine we&#039;d be playing skulltag by now. Good job Chow you made everyone play ST. [/quote]<br /><br />Now now, settle down, thing won&#039;t be that drastic.<br /><br />[quote]Back to the point at hand. I&#039;m actually of a differing opinion on this subject. Being an active member of the board for about 3 months now I tend to believe things like this are best run autocratically. So yeah, I agree the board is a bad solution. On the other hand I think Chow&#039;s solution is naive, indicative of stupidity and by those merits, worse.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Of course my solution might be, it is why I opted to have a thread about everyone else&#039;s opinion on the board and what have you. I really do appreciate player posts here, and wished the board members didn&#039;t just shrug it off at first. I salute Xen for being the first poster and actually taking some initiative here.&nbsp; :-*