Clearly, the core issue here is map selection, so I&#039;m going to address that more in-depth now, because the arguing and the talk of democracy does not interest me personally, nor can I really make any decent points anyone else has not made. I can&#039;t speak for the rest of the board about map selection, but I will speak for my own board position on the matter.<br /><br />[quote author=Hatred link=topic=544.msg5486#msg5486 date=1322637413]<br />Speaking of BPCTF: it&#039;s awful.<br /><br />I would like to know under what circumstances were the maps tested under? Were they organized 3v3 matches? Did everyone just join a server, run around and shoot with no ambition or attempt of a coordinated plan to truly test the map?[/quote]<br /><br />I find it interesting you say BPCTF is awful, but I would like to retort with the same question. How often have you played 3v3 organized games in the same vein and level of consistency and competition as IDL on the new maps? Probably not enough to say if it&#039;s good or bad. All the priv games I&#039;ve participated in on new maps were 4v4. Not to mention via word-of-mouth I was unsuccessful in even choosing libraries as a map because no one wanted to play it. Why? Just because it was &#039;bad&#039;. It&#039;s a new, rather unique flowing map. No one can know if it will end up going from starting to be despised to being a semi-regularly picked map like map14, or if it will go the way of Ghoul&#039;s warehouse looking map and no one ends up liking it period. Although that example is a little contrived since the latter caused server issues. You see my point, however. And it is why I am slightly disgusted the board had voted to replace libraries before it had been played to an extensive or even in a serious degree. I hate some of the maps, but how can I say they&#039;re bad with any authority unless they&#039;re played in the [i]very league under the very settings they&#039;re intended to be?![/i]<br /><br />Regardless, you [b]do[/b] have a point about one thing. A majority of the maps ( I have no idea how many maps total were considered, but I would wager 200+ ) were not tested by the board due to the sheer difficulty I assume of assembling people to test them in an environment that could mimic the IDL&#039;s intense matches. There were cases where members blindly voted for maps without even looking through them solo! What really ended up happening was no one working on maps, and I mean no one, until it was a week or so from deadline, and is that enough to properly go through 20 or so WADs?<br /><br />Probably not. Should we have worked harder on filtering maps and seeing how well they [b]all[/b] play amongst ourselves? Yes. I do not believe this would have outright changed player opinion, though. There are quite a few maps in history that players at first would go &#039;why did this get in&#039; and end up liking it for the games it produces if not personally like how the map flows in a competitive match. We have the results of neither on any of the new maps.<br /><br />[quote author=chow link=topic=544.msg5489#msg5489 date=1322651854]<br />It is just a starting point. MANY of us hate the Christmas map, map14, and would really appreciate bringing back ZD07.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Well, see above. If everyone hated map14, I doubt it would get played as much. There&#039;s been well over a dozen unique players who have picked map14 in priv games. The worst is how people will apply the dislike of a few vocal players to the silent majority. I personally do not like map14, but that does not change the fact many more players enjoy it going off how often it is picked, which is much more so than 50% of the wad. So, instead of throwing a tantrum about how bad it is, it&#039;s far more productive to look at the map and see how you can evolve the style of play it sustains to better suit your playing method. I would also like to reiterate my point above the quote and say that there&#039;s not one person in the league who can know how IDL games will change or not change perspectives and results on new maps.<br /><br />If Doomers hate anything, it is change to something they&#039;re used to. Sometimes change has to be forced for the better. If you want to play the same maps and map styles for 10 years maybe IDL is not your thing. That&#039;s how I voted. I wanted maps in that would add something new to the map pool. In a vast majority of my preferred picks, they were eliminated in the system of voting we employed.<br /><br />In addition, no one is saying idl2012i, j, or even the last revision of the wad itself is the final IDL wad you will see. So don&#039;t pretend it is. It&#039;s not the end of the world. The maps you dislike based off conjecture may not even be played in the two seasons it takes for idl2013.wad&#039;s map voting to commence. On the other hand, you could be pleasantly surprised at how games turn out. The fact is, you don&#039;t know. I don&#039;t know! Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ doesn&#039;t even know. Not even James Mason can know.<br /><br />On the bright side, I&#039;ll know who in particular to highlight bomb if we decide to test a map. So progress is being made [b]already[/b], even if it&#039;s not the progress you, I, or others may want!<br /><br />That was a lot of words.